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Thread: Commendation of Kael'thas....tanking you say??

  1. #81
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    Thats your best reply so far. You're wrongly implying things that I'm not saying, If there's any1 trusting on their healers is me, and we have some crazy healwhore ones, and for that reason I try at my best to reduce the burden of them, which I think that trinket does.

    hehehe, I think you're a bit rising a crusade against a trinket that worldwide is considered among the best in several fights.

  2. #82
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    I use it for every boss fight (up to/including m'uru) in sunwell. I still haven't seen a Pocket Watch on my warrior, so it's that + shadowmoon for brut.

    The stam is nice for EH, the proc is nice for potentially giving the healers the extra half-second to finish their casts.

    I'm not a fan of relying on the RNG (which is why, unless the boss has a really fast attack speed, I typically stack EH first), but this is a game of dice rolls.
    Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity. -Seneca
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  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slobash View Post
    Again it comes back to having faith in your healers which you obviously don't. If watery graves cause a healing issue on you (as the MT) then you should be considering plans to avoid this issue. In the mean time if you've been smacked low from an unlucky combination and your trinket has become active then you've received heals and continued tanking (as the above scenario implies) what happens when he quakes? Depending on what strategy you're using but most involve healers not aggroing the murlocs when they spawn (unless you're using a holy pally to draw them to one spot) which means your healers are trying their best to NOT heal you for as long as they can. Would this not be the time you REALLY want some avoidance to give them the breathing room they require?

    What you are saying is "I am at low health and I don't believe my healers will get me back up and I need more avoidance at this point". What i'm saying in the same situation is "I am at low health but my latent avoidance and the faith I have in my healers will keep me alive and i'd prefer to save my burst avoidance for the times when my healers need me to be avoiding more hits".

    I'm a control freak and I like to be able to tank consistently and finish fights in the same way. If I spike low and a trinket procs more avoidance and I live (because of that avoidance) it means my healers will assume that next time I drop that low i'll live again, unaware that the trinket is unable to proc again. I'd rather instil a sense of urgency in my healers that getting me back to a safe level of health is a priority.
    We do it a little differently, since I tank the murlocs. Imp RF is great for generating the threat, and just having the pallies heal during that portion ensures that the hits are coming on plate wearers, especially once they set foot in the Consecration. For something like this (multiple mobs) or the trash waves in MH, the [item]Commendation of Kael'thas[/item] shines. It kicks in when the dodge is needed the most, giving the healers a chance to catch up quickly when they've previously had to pause healing to make sure aggro was firmly locked in. Combined with Ardent Defender, both kicking in at 35% health, gives me much greater survivability when it is essential and aggro is already locked in. The quick cooldown of the Commendation also means that it will be up again soon if another burst of damage gets through.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slobash View Post
    @Thaliodin
    "The 18% dodge from Moroes' leaves you with a decent chance of becoming rage-starved and causing that aggro loss. "

    It's already been shown that across a given period of time the commendation provides more avoidance than the pocketwatch (on equip and on use abilities combined) hence the commendation rage starves you even moreso. As you say though this becomes less of an issue in the expansion with the new "rage for avoiding" talent.
    My point is focused on the fact that the Commendation improves both your EH by a substantial margin and gives you an avoidance jump when you really need it. Paladin mechanics are decidedly different that warrior threat generation, though. My Consecrate will continue to build threat no matter how much I dodge. Mana/rage become much more of an issue when you dodge a large % of attacks in a row.

    The Commendation does not create huge bursts of avoidance that make generating aggro difficult. It helps smooth out the damage spikes by creating some additional avoidance when you most need it to survive. Over time it creates more avoidance IF your health is very low, but the [item]Moroes' Lucky Pocket Watch[/item] creates a high spike in avoidance, causing an opposite effect.

    How much faith do you have in your healers? If the answer is "Complete trust", then you should never activate the use ability, since it would be a waste and drop rage generation. If you completely trust your healers, you will have confidence that they'll get that heal off on you in time to keep you up....the extra 16% dodge becomes unnecessary, even harmful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Slobash View Post
    ...I'd prefer to save my burst avoidance for the times when my healers need me to be avoiding more hits".
    If you are saving Moroes' until your healers run OOM, you need to talk to your lead healer and the Raid Leader and find out why the healers are going OOM and the boss isn't down yet. I understand using it as a dodge version of a "shield wall", but an unused ability is a wasted ability.

    But really, all tanks build in a mix of armor, stamina, and avoidance/mitigation into our gear setup. We do not ignore all of one to boost the other two unless we prefer a quick dirt nap. This overall discussion is really the old "effective health" school vs. the "avoidance" school argument. When it comes down to it, no really successful tank does one to the relative exclusion of the other. I've know tanks who stack a [item]Solid Star of Elune[/item] in every gem socket ot the exclusion of all else. I consider them foolish just like a tank who stacks avoidance and mitigation to the point where they are 85% passively uncrushable but have 12K health. Granted, I don't know any of the second type, but that's probably because they're still struggling to get through 5-mans. At least the first type has more suitability against all types of mobs and bosses.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slobash View Post
    I think your understanding of spell reflect is a bit off, any spells that are a serious problem in endgame raids are generally not reflectable anyway. While this is just for clarification it really just adds fuel to your argument as it means that it's even more important to have more stamina in fights where you're taking a lot of spell damage. I don't think anyone would disagree that in a spell-intensive fight avoidance is less important than stamina.
    You are probably right that my understanding is a bit off, although I have seen several spellcasting bosses be spell reflected by the warriors in our tank corps. I haven't personally run a MT Warrior since BWL/AQ40/Naxx, and spell reflect didn't exist then, so I appreciate the information. Tanking and itemization take on a whole different set of problems when it all depends on holy damage.

  4. #84
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    I don't know, I don't get into BT much anymore as we're currently working on Muru, but I never take the Commendation out, the trinket I swap it the badge blocking one, ( I use on Felmyst for threat), Gurtogs for Muru and the Pocket watch for Brutallus and Kalecgos.

    Can't deny the Commendation for it's stam and avoidance when Brutallus hits me so hard my dick hurts. Staggering the watch on brutallus is op when you add the Commendation in with it.

    I'm sure there are more effective combinations, but those work pretty good for what I'm tanking. But one thing I've found myself doing more now is using Pyrestones for Hit+Agility in a couple of different slots. I use it in my T6 belt, Brut's Legs and Fel's shield. (as opposed to a spinel) I may be way off base here, but when your dps is pumping out 2200+ on a boss, a miss of anything hurts more than a hit from the boss. (flame away)
    Last edited by Calve; 07-21-2008 at 08:11 PM. Reason: you can click on the broken pic for my armory link


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  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slobash View Post
    Hey folks, I posted this on my guilds website after watching tank after tank wandering around Shatt wearing it and wondering why.
    The gear you see me wearing in Shatt is not the gear I wear to tank gorefiend is not the gear I wear to tank winterchill is not the gear I wear to tank Naj'entus is not the gear I wear to tank Supremus.

    I have a base set bound to my f12 key, it's what i'm wearing on the armory. Before each boss fight I hit f12 to take me out of my threat set and into a heavy EH set. I use that as a template and swap out gear according to each boss. Sometimes I don't change very much, sometimes I change several pieces. The trinkets in said set are the darkmoon faire card and the commendation. In my bags I have the pocketwatch, scarab, shard, and autoblocker, along with many other pieces of gear.

    Also, it's not always about mitigating as much damage as possible. Often I would prefer to mitigate as much damage as needed, then use the other stats for threat. On fights like gorefiend, that's overkill. But I don't think I would ever use the pocketwatch for something like winterchill or anetheron. They simply don't hit hard enough to justify so much avoidance.

    tl;dr version:

    Trinkets, like other gear slots, can and should be tailored to the job. Just because a tank is wearing two stam trinkets and all eh gear in shatt, doesn't mean that is what he wears to Archie.

  6. #86
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    Thaliodin you missed the point a little, when i said "I'd prefer to save my burst avoidance for the times when my healers need me to be avoiding more hits" it's with regard to moments when an ability stops them healing like a fear, earthquake, silence etc. Nothing to do with healer mana.

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tedward View Post
    Trinkets, like other gear slots, can and should be tailored to the job. Just because a tank is wearing two stam trinkets and all eh gear in shatt, doesn't mean that is what he wears to Archie.
    I wear commendation all the time. I'm not saying I'm doing it right or the best way (not that there even is one). But it's one of many good options, and 57 stam is always a good option, proc or not. Try as we might, we can't account for every situation and every scenario. Getting hit happens way too much (and in different ways) for us to be able to do that. We can argue hypothetical scenarios and theorycraft all day long, but every item has pros and cons. I'm sure all of them have been covered for commendation within these pages, I'm just way too lazy to read through it all.

  8. #88
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    You will get hit, that is the biggest point here. Sure go ahead pop the pocket watch once every 2 minutes, or when you think your healers need the break the most is fine. Just choose your fight. But the times when its down, you may get ass raped because you chose not to have the extra 57 stam or the avoidance below or on 35%.

    Morogrim I'll use my avoidance set, Supremus I won't.

    You say if you want stam roll a druid. I have more stam than the Druids, Paladins and other warriors in my guild.

    Now you'll probably counter with, "well that's a crappy geared druid," But I like having a lot of health. Effective Health son. It's what's for dinner.

  9. #89
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    It's already been shown mathematically that the stam on the commendation and the latent dodge on the trinket are about equal so the weighting here is on the value of the proc. Again it comes back to play style. You're happy riding with lots of health but only 494 defense (in your current gear on armory) whereas my own opinions of that would be different. Have I ever been "ass raped" for not wearing the commendation? Maybe. Has anyone been "ass raped" while wearing the commendation? Probably. Has the pocket watch saved me in many situations? Yes. Has the commendation saved people? Yes also. Horses for courses

  10. #90
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    So this discussion is over then? Slobash You've been given examples of why this is a good trinket, and of it's usages and non-usages. Are you satisfied with this thread. Cuz I'd like to close it to prevent further misconstuing of information of flaming.

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  11. #91
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    I think this all boils down to this. You have stated from the beginning that you do not have the experience that most of these tanks that you are arguing with have. Heck, I dont even have the experience that some of them have. Yet you still try to 'prove' to everyone that you have 'shown with mathmatical reasoning' that you are right and they are wrong.

    Perhaps you should try to actually put what others have said to use. You seem to ignore the fact stated when people say "We have different trinkets for different fights" and continue to slam hard on your 'theory'.

    In my oppinion, you're no more than the typical rogue that comes to the warrior forums on the world of warcraft webpage that tries to tell people how to tank when they've never played a tanking class in their life.

    The thing about most of the theories on this webpage.. They were actually PROVEN through practice. They were not just spouted off by someone who could not even give realistic proof short of numbers. If you don't want to wear the Commendation because you feel it is wasted, then don't wear it. That is your option as a tank. I do alot of things as a tank that others may find to be unorthodox, but I still do them and I can justify why I do them. It works for me, why should anyone try to tell me differently because some rogue came up to me and tells me "I've never tanked before, and I've never seen past Karazhan, but this theory says you shouldn't do that so lol at you!" Do you honestly think I will change my ways? No, what usually ends up happening, is I calmly explain to the person why I do what I do, explain to them in full detail, and make them look like a complete idiot infront of everyone standing around me. I have done it to both tanks and dps and healers alike.
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  12. #92
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    Kazey: should have been closed ages ago, sorry about that Once it gets this long it just gets the flamers who don't read it all and throw their own opinions in to look smart (see above)

    Thanks for the discussion folks, I never posted to prove that the commendation is worthless but I had my own reasons to think it was weak in comparison to the alternatives for many endgame fights. While some of my thoughts have been proven to be a little off base some of my core thoughts on the subject still ring warning bells for me.

    For me with the power that the trinket slot can give I had to think long and hard about whether I wanted to use it for stam or avoidance. Given that stam is pretty easy to pick up in other gear I went the avoidance path and stuck with my pocket watch and i'm glad I did but that's my personal opinion. I don't plan on using the commendation in any upcoming battles that I can foresee though I do see its merits in certain situations.

    Thanks to those of you out there who took the time to crunch out the numbers, it's people like you that bring people to tankspot in the hope to get away from the BS on the wow forums

    Now to find something else to 'discuss'

    /endthread

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