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Thread: Commendation of Kael'thas....tanking you say??

  1. #1
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    Commendation of Kael'thas....tanking you say??

    Hey folks, I posted this on my guilds website after watching tank after tank wandering around Shatt wearing it and wondering why. I'm not expecting people to agree with me but I haven't seen much discussion over it anywhere and you guys are all pretty onto it so I thought it might make for some new discussion

    Pasted from my guilds forums:

    Please note that the following is my own opinion on this matter be it right or wrong in your eyes.

    I've noticed lately a lot of tanks (warriors and pallys mostly) who are using Commendation of Kaelthas as a tanking trinket in endgame situations. I've seen tanks in some of the larger progression guilds using it, i've seen tanks in smaller 10man raid guilds using it. And i've thought long and hard about it and I just don't like it. And I want to explain why in case there's anyone using it or considering it that is taking it on face value.

    Commendation of Kael'thas
    Binds when picked up
    Unique
    TrinketMiscellaneous
    +57 Stamina
    Requires Level 70
    Equip: Melee attacks which reduce you below 35% health cause you to gain 152 dodge rating for 10 seconds. Cannot occur more than once every 30 sec.


    So there it is. On the surface it looks perfectly reasonable as an endgame trinket and in a way it is. It provides 570 HP which scale with BoKings. And it's sort of an automatic "oh shit" button when your health gets below 35%. Sounds good!

    But.....

    This sort of passive automatic proc can be dangerous. In essence you're using a trinket that sits providing 57 stam, sort of a big stam gem. It does absolutely nothing else whatsoever unless youre health drops below 35% which will usually happen after some big spike of damage. But what if you're on 36%?

    Assuming a well geared endgame tank has around 19000 HP. 35% is 6650 so you'll probably be taking a good couple of hits in a row assuming the boss is hitting for 6-7K to drop you below that mark. At which point your "oh shit" ability activates and you get an extra 8% dodge. But if the boss hits you and you're on 6700 your trinket is sitting there doing nothing but give you stam. There's no magic button to make it work, it's waiting for your health to get lower. So then you're sitting on sub 7K health with a boss who can oneshot you in his next swing and your avoidance is lower than it would be with a different trinket. It's at this point that I would be hitting the button on my:

    Moroes' Lucky Pocket Watch
    Binds when picked up
    Unique
    TrinketMiscellaneous
    Requires Level 70
    Use: Increases dodge rating by 300 for 10 seconds.
    Equip: Increases your dodge rating by 38.

    This gives me control over my "oh shit" button. I don't have to wait till i'm nearly dead. It's usable any time i'm in trouble. It has a 2 minute cooldown but it'll save me when I need it most, not when it THINKS I need it most.

    Think about the same scenario applied to some of the endgame fights we already know. Azgalor casts silence and smashes you to 6700 health. Would you rather have a button to push or wait till you get lower? Basically on any boss with a silence ability this trinket blows. Or a boss that fears your healers? On Morogrim when he earthquakes, do you really want your avoidance to kick in when you're almost dead?

    The issue of threat generation raises even more eyebrows and in my opinion relegates this trinket to the "my healers are unreliable and i need the extra stam" category.

    In a 10man situation it's ok assuming your gear is about right with the raid. If you're outgearing the encounters however your avoidance and mitigation is already making threat generation more difficult (warriors and druids are getting less rage, paladins require less healing and get less mana returned). Less "threat points" means making your dps hold back. A couple of lucky shots and all of a sudden you're dodging a lot of hits for 10 seconds and you can do nothing about it. In the mean time your dps is going crazy and catching up.....

    In 25s it's even worse. Many of the fights are dps races and at an endgame 25 man level your dpsers expect you to be generating threat like a bull at a gate. At the start of any raid boss encounter your health will generally fluctuate a lot as healers get into a rhythm and see how hard you're being hit, this means the chances of your trinket proccing right at the start of the fight are high. This isn't so bad for a pally but for a druid or warrior this means your rage is being gimped and your threat gen along with it. In a boss like Kaz'rogal who then warstomps you every few seconds but needs to die fast this means your dps will have to hold back to avoid pulling aggro and eventually this could lead to a wipe as marks overwhelm the raid. In fights like Voidreaver who have massive aggro dumps this amplifies even more.

    So if you really REALLY need the stam and there's no other way of getting it....i'd suggest looking again.

    Feel free to flame me if you like but I just don't see the good out-weighing the bad....

  2. #2
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    Try [_item_]Commendation of Kael'Thas[_/item_] (remove the _ from the item tags) -> [item]Commendation of Kael'Thas[/item]

  3. #3
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    lol thanks, was a direct paste from my guild forums that don't have that little gem but I shall definitely use that in future

  4. #4
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    People used to wear the darkmoon cards just for the 51 stam, why wouldn't people wear an easier to obtain 57 stam trinket? even if the on proc isn't as great as it seems, it still helps in tough situations, not to mention 57 stam here means you can equip more avoidance elsewhere while maintaining eh minimums.

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  5. #5
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    When I tank I use commendation and pocketwatch, so I get both = win.

  6. #6
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    Not really as you should use something like Scarab of Displacement or Shadowmoon Insignia. Kazeys reply is the standard "I stack stam for ze big HP" response which I shall respond with my usual "if you wanted to be a stam whore you should have rolled a druid". If you have a decent pool of HP then you should be stacking avoidance and mitigation rather than more HP, sure a bigger HP pool means less chance of getting killed by consecutive hits but sacrificing avoidance means more pressure on your healers. Just FYI I thought the darkmoon card wearers were equally crazy for using it and in fact I think the darkmoon card is better than the commendation as far as the ability goes.

  7. #7
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    Your answer doesn't help the nonraiding tanks like myself. Full kara, 4/4 ZA, what other trinkets should I use? For the content I am at, there is no better 2nd trinket choice. I believe it is also the popular consensus that stam is a priority in overcoming progression, so if and when I do get into 35 mans, I will have the health pool to give the healer a little more time.

    If your post or comments are only aimed at T5 plus geared tanks, then you should say so, but I bet there are way more tanks at my level or below then above.

  8. #8
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    Slobash, your evaluation is flawed, imo: Going to the commendation, You're sacrificing a more powerful on use for a less powerful passive proc with greater uptime. You can have the commendation proc up 3 times as often as the pocketwatch. It just makes more sense to use the commendation based on uptime.

    You're tanking a boss, he slams your face in, you're at 20%, you hit the pocket watch, you dodge, you win. 30 seconds later he caves your face in, your pocket watch has a minute thirty left before you can use it again, he caves your face in again, you die. The commendation, you have a lower chance of dodging the first time, but a greater chance of dodging the second and third times.

    See where I'm going? You're sacrificing a little here, for more there. It's just like ditching health for avoidance, only in this case you get more of both.

  9. #9
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    I think you're false economising. It's not about how much or how often it's all about when. It can proc every time it's cooled down but if it's on cooldown and your healers get feared/silenced/cc'd/outranged then you're left high and dry with no "oh shit" to hit. If you spike low and then get hit with about 3 greater heals and topped to full health then your trinket is really just making you dodge and get less rage for no reason whatsoever. Then you're left in the cold for any time when your healers are less able to heal you efficiently. Also you can't use it to take pressure off your healers in any situation. For example in Najentus and Archimonde where the whole raid is taking damage (if Arch gets a soul charge for example) in a burst and the healers need to get everyone topped it's the perfect time to pop an avoidance ability and allow them to focus on keeping other people alive. With the commendation you don't have that luxury until you're nearly dead at which point all your healers go "oh crap tank's low" and all switch to you, possibly ignoring raid members who are about to die.

    Tattman: yeah sorry bud i'm talking about for content above and beyond ssc/tk, it's certainly a great option for anyone not running any of that content. Though if you have the badges for it i'd recommend the autoblocker instead.

  10. #10
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    Consider also for the player who is horrible at clicking on use procs....like me....will you always remember to hit pocketwatch if you are hitting your rotations like crazy and watching everything around you, or will the proc that clicks itself for you save you the second or two you need?

  11. #11
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    This would be pretty much the best tanking trinket (for survivability) in the game even if it DIDNT have the proc.

    Also, the proc activates at the best time: when you are low. Avoidance when you are at max health doesnt really help, it just denies you rage. Avoidance when you are low is awesome, it saves your life.

    Commendation gives you dodge at the CORRECT TIME, which is when youre in danger. It also has the most stam of any trinket in the game, thus giving you the highest effective health gain.

    "Feel free to flame me if you like but I just don't see the good out-weighing the bad...."

    Lets see...I'll choose the flame you option :P
    Saying that you think Commendation is bad pretty much makes me think you understand tanking theory at all, and that youre probably not very far progressed, or if you are, that your misevaluation of tnaking trinkets is holding back your guild.

  12. #12
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    Sounds like you need more keybindings to me. Using your trinkets and abilities is all a part of endgame tanking, if you're unable to do so then you should be looking less at the gear and more at your tanking style.

    The automatic proc is bad for so many reasons. For 10 seconds you're dodging and taking less damage, your healers slack off then for 20 seconds the ability can't proc and you're spiking low. Your healers up their heals to compensate then they begin wasting mana on overhealing. They realise this and slow the heals down again and BAM you're low again, it's very inconsistent and frustrating for your healers. Maintaining a consistent avoidance level allows your healers to get into a rhythm and be more mana conservative. It means your threat generation is fairly stable and your dpsers can ride your threat without worrying that your threat gen dies off and they overtake you with dots or crits. And you have a button to hit if something goes wrong, fear, silence, stun, MT healer dies etc. Having a buffer you can use to compensate for any healing interruptions makes endgame raiding a lot more stable.

    This is good, I like seeing peoples opinions

    In response to Crimson:

    I've been tanking since pre-bc and have been our guilds MT since BC came out. We are currently clearing Hyjal and working on BT.

    I don't think you're reading the entirety of my posts. I consider being below 10K health at any given time in a fight to be "low". Yet Commendation won't proc till I get well below 10K. The threshold it procs at is one-shot range on many endgame bosses and even with the buff up if you DON'T dodge the next attack you might die. This won't be an issue if your healers are all available as usually this would just be bad timing or lack of synch in the healing but if it's because of a boss ability then you're forced to blow another 'oh shit' ability like last stand or a healthstone/pot.

    Let's look at Azgalor as an example as he has a fairly short cooldown silence, generally he uses it every 20-30 seconds or so.
    Assuming you've started the encounter fine and everyones getting into a rhythm.

    Tank with commendation, rain of fire lands in melee range and he hits you hard twice. Your health drops below 35% and your trinket procs. Heals land almost immediately and you're back on full health but with 8% more dodge. This means less rage and slower dps. 20 seconds later the raid is silenced and you have 5 seconds to survive with hots only.

    Tank with pocket watch, rain of fire lands in melee range and he hits you hard twice. Your health drops below 35% and nothing happens. Heals land almost immediately and you're back on full health and continuing your threat generation. 20 seconds later the raid is silenced so you pop your pocket watch increasing your dodge by 16% while your healers wait out the silence.

    I'm not saying that you need a pocket watch or a trinket that increases your avoidance to survive and be successful in these encounters. I'm just pointing out that commendation did absolutely nothing to help you besides providing 57 stam. 62 if you factor in kings. You weren't about to die as your healers had heals incoming so what was the point of increased avoidance?

    I think your definition of "in danger" is terrible. If you believe that being on low health is being "in danger" then you have little to no faith in your healers. If you've got to low health either the boss got some lucky consecutive shots on you and your healing synch was out or your healers are otherwise engaged. Either way the danger is not in you avoiding the next shot it's in getting your health back up ASAP. Maybe if the commendation procced just BEFORE a shot that WOULD have taken you below 35% health it would be a lot more useful.

    Do you have healing issues in your raids on the MT? Can you explain how in endgame encounters the commendation is a feasible tanking trinket aside from providing stam?
    Last edited by Slobash; 07-11-2008 at 06:14 PM.

  13. #13
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    Slobash

    Sorry dude, that trinket has saved my ass a lot. Yes if every raid you went to everyone was geared and experienced and perfect you probably wouldn't need any trinkets. This trinket with [item]Moroes' Lucky Pocket Watch[/item] is an overpowered combo, a ton of dodge, stamina, dodge on use and dodge on proc. YES YOU CAN HAVE BOTH ON AT THE SAME TIME FYI :P

    What this trinket does is allow me to drop other stamina gear for threat gear etc with out falling below the EH minimum required for the encounter. I would not use it for trash and pure threat encounters where my chance to die is very low, but on the harder ones when my healers etc are under pressure I will use it every time.

    I would check out some wws reports and see how many times this proc might have saved 25 man raids from wiping, a lot I am sure.

    EH/Avoidance, when it counts ~ [item]Commendation of Kael'thas[/item]
    Avoidance ~ [item]Moroes' Lucky Pocket Watch[/item]

    I actually use the Moroes' trinket sometimes as my healers are getting put under pressure so they don't have to worry about me for a bit.

    P.S.
    [item]Ancient Aqir Artifact[/item] ~ Absolutely Useless - This is the trinket you should be bashing.
    Last edited by rustyboy; 07-11-2008 at 07:57 PM.

  14. #14
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    Totally agree, that things rubbish. And i'm not saying the commendation is rubbish fullstop, i'm saying I think the other options are better in a T5/6 tanking environment.

    Would like to see someone actually explaining why my arguments are incorrect rather than just talking up the trinket with things people have already said. I got dissed as not understanding tanking theory yet noone is arguing with any theory in response...

  15. #15
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    I still think the smaller boosts of the commendation add up to more over time than the all at once of the pocket watch.

    But that is a preference point and not something that I can seriously quantify. My gut tells me that you should be able to meter it by commendation dodge / recast and then (Pocket watch on use / recast) + Pocket watch passive dodge.

    but I don't even remember the numbers off the top of my head nor do I particularly feel like going below 20K Hp so I can claim to control my oh shit button. (Druid tank.)

  16. #16
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    Yep you're dead right, not debating that at all. Commendation definitely provides more avoidance over time than the pocket watch hands down. What i'm arguing is that most of that uptime is wasted as the chances of it being up when you really need it (ie you're not getting the heals you need) are slim. Being in control of your 'burst' avoidance to me massively outweighs the uptime of the commendation proc.

  17. #17
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    A lot of your arguments seem to revolve around threat and how being rage starved can affect your dps - if you're at the stage of tanking MH and BT and you're still finding lots of your dps are riding the threat cap, it would be a better time to evaluate your threat rotation and other gear choices than blaming the proc of the commendation. An increased amount of dodge for 10 seconds, once every 30 seconds should not cause you to lose significant amounts of threat, but could save your life. Pots such as a Mighty Rage Potions can also overcome any rage issues you may have.

    The exception to this would be at the start of the fight - however at the start of a fight when you still haven't managed to put out large amounts of threat you should have a full healing team alive; no boss abilities like Azgalor's silence used, etc. If you're finding yourself in a situation where your health is dropping low enough for the proc to occur that soon into a fight, you need to have a strong word to your healers.

    In my opinion, having a larger health pool with which to soak up damage(+57 stam, which is simply huge for a trinket) and an extremely useful dodge proc are far superior to a little more dodge and a panic button once every two minutes.

    The other thing - a main tank at the MH/BT level with the ability to tank Azgalor like you use as an example should have around 21k hp fully raid buffed (including commanding shout), not 19k like you said. I would consider 19k quite low. This would then make the threshold for the commendation proc ~7.3k hp.

    Assuming that a boss is not hitting you for more than 9k, this then means that around 81% of the time that you're in the danger zone where a boss could kill you on the next swing, you're covered by the commendation proc. This isn't insignificant by any means, and seeing how often tanks take spike damage (greatly in excess of once every 2 minutes), would seem to give far more protection than the on-use of the pocketwatch.

    EDIT: This would also seem to suggest that the value of the commendation scales with your level of gear and stamina; the more hit points you have compared to the maximum damage incoming, the larger a percentage of the potential fatal blow region the 35% would cover, and the more likely you are to have the commendation up when you need it.
    Last edited by Beerey; 07-11-2008 at 11:59 PM.

  18. #18
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    I understand you but that still doesn't cover the moments where your healers are silenced or feared which seems to occur a lot in later raids. If your commendation has procced through some spike damage and then isn't available to proc when your healers are unable to heal you you're forced to use something else either consumable or on a longer cooldown. Sure this MAY not happen a lot but in order to farm content you need to be consistent and wiping through bad luck makes raids angry especially in Hyjal where you have all the damned waves to kill again. Your comment "This isn't insignificant by any means, and seeing how often tanks take spike damage (greatly in excess of once every 2 minutes), would seem to give far more protection than the on-use of the pocketwatch." also assumes that bosses give you spike damage in nice friendly portions and without doing it consecutively.

    Are you saying you believe the Commendation is THE best trinket option at an endgame level? Because that's what i'm arguing against, i'm seeing tanks in late BT and early Sunwell with it on because of the stam and in my opinion there are better options. My biggest point on this is that the moments you REALLY need avoidance are when your healers are unable to heal you and there's no way in those situations that the commendation can help you. Azgalor can hit for 9-10K as can archi yet your health can be anywhere between 7 and 10K (assuming 21K+ health) and your commendation won't proc. Admittedly 0 HP is less than 35%.....

  19. #19
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    Slobash, a suggestion... you may want to cross reference this with the Ardent Defender theorycrafting that people do. The commendation shares much in common with it and there are many arguements in favor and against it. I know it's a talent, hardly compares, but the number ranges are similar. You might see some ideas you hadn't considered.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slobash View Post
    Would like to see someone actually explaining why my arguments are incorrect rather than just talking up the trinket with things people have already said. I got dissed as not understanding tanking theory yet noone is arguing with any theory in response...
    Okay here goes...

    - "if you wanted to be a stam whore you should have rolled a druid" will always make the person you are talking to think you are a fool, it's like saying Block Rating is awesome because Blizzard told you it was by putting it on your tanking gear
    - Using 1 trinket does not mean you are stacking Stamina
    - Stacking Stamina is the correct way to gear yourself for some encounters
    - Stamina isn't useless for a Warrior just because it scales better for a Druid
    - On-use effects are affected by Human Error, Auto-use effects are not
    - You need avoidance more when you are at 35% than when you are at 36%
    - If your healers get lazy when they see an 8% Avoidance buff when you're at 30% health then you've got bigger problems than trinket selection
    - Shouldn't gaining 16% Avoidance make your healers just as lazy as gaining 8%
    - If you've got lazy healers wouldn't you rather have a use that'll happen 4 times in 2 minutes for a total of 40 seconds Avoidance rather than 1 time in 2 minutes for a total of 10 seconds Avoidance
    - Isn't it better to have more Stamina when you have lazy (reactive) healers than more Avoidance because that way they'll have more time to react
    - Scarab of Displacement offers 8% Avoidance every 3 minutes and reduces your threat more than frequently dodging
    - Gaining 8% Avoidance when you have less than 35% health is never wasted
    - You'll need 'burst' avoidance less often if you have more health
    - An avoidance buff doesn't immediately mean that your threat will be so terrible that dps will have to slow down
    - You can't call Commendation's 8% Avoidance up occasional a huge threat loss and then ignore Moroes Pocket Watch's 2% Avoidance that's up constantly
    - 10,000 health is in danger, but under 35% isn't? /confused
    - you get 2 trinkets slots, you can't compare Moroes Pocket Watch to Commendation of Kael'thas when you can use both, you have to prove Moroes Pocket Watch AND another trinket are better than Commendation otherwise your entire argument is pointless.
    - you can't say someone's argument is pointless if they are in SSC when you're trying to prove that the majority of tanks in Sunwell are wrong
    - you got dissed for immediately being a jackass to the administrator who was nice to you

    There that's about as good as I can do without getting mean.

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