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Thread: Agility vs Dodge Rating; which is preferred?

  1. #41
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    All that discussion just depends of the def/parry/dodge/agi you've got already, because of DR. Nothing is fixed ! There is no sense arguing in absolute if this is better than that.

    At some point, agility might become superior to the other stats even in term of pure mitigation (ignoring the threat). The only question is at wich point ? According to Rawr calculations, it seems that this point is quite high, but not that high. A well-stuffed war tank can reach that point. That's not my case at the moment, but there's no doubt I'll reach this point before Cataclysm.

    Another point is that one major effect of the Chill of the Throne is to increase the role of armor. Because whatever may be your base avoidance, you're gonna take more hits, so armor will be 20% more "used" than before (armor has no effect as long as you're avoiding). Thus, the little armor provided by agility is something like 20% usefull than before, and the point where agility might become superior is somehow lowered.

    Do the maths, never follow a fixed belief, all is relative.
    Last edited by Aradril; 12-10-2009 at 08:47 AM.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aradril View Post
    All that discussion just depends of the def/parry/dodge/agi you've got already, because of DR. Nothing is fixed ! There is no sense arguing in absolute if this is better than that.
    No, when comparing agility to dodge rating in terms of % value, it is fixed. Agility will always be worse than dodge in terms of it's avoidance value, with and without DR. Agility and dodge both use the same DR values, the same DR equations, and neither are affected by DR separately (they are always lumped together for DR). The only difference between them in terms of %dodge is the conversion factors, in which dodge rating always wins.

    Now there are crossover points when comparing dodge to parry (and even to defense), but not agility compared to dodge. You should check up on the math behind it and some of the research that whitetooth did as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aradril View Post
    At some point, agility might become superior to the other stats even in term of pure mitigation (ignoring the threat). The only question is at wich point ? According to Rawr calculations, it seems that this point is quite high, but not that high. A well-stuffed war tank can reach that point. That's not my case at the moment, but there's no doubt I'll reach this point before Cataclysm.
    Agility will definitely be superior to the other stats in terms of pure mitigation because it is the only stat of those that provides pure mitigation (armor from agility). So it will always be superior in that respect. Defense does provide block rating, but no one will be capped in ICC, so it really doesn't count as "pure" mitigation in that respect.

  3. #43
    Yeah I did not mean you would see less diminishing returns on agil vs dodge. Rather the rate at which you saw increases in diminishing returns from the dodge gained would be lowered by geming agility over dodge rating as you would have less dodge over all.
    Last edited by Senusret; 12-10-2009 at 03:16 PM.

  4. #44
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    Yes, but wouldn't you simply have less avoidance overall in that case?

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Senusret View Post
    Rather the rate at which you saw increases in diminishing returns
    Confusing bunch of words. Ha.

    The reason to use agility rather than dodge rating has nothing to do with diminishing returns whatsoever.


    Let's be clear:
    Dodge = the most pure avoidance gained for the gem inserted.

    Agility = many smaller values all in one piece, small dodge, small crit, small armor (smaller AP for DK's and Warriors).


    If your sole metric is "what will get me the first avoidance" then there is no argument, dodge wins in all scenarios.
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  6. #46
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    You're right I was deeply mistaken puting more different DR than there are actually. It's true that agility would never provides as much avoidance as dodge.

    Nevertheless, as said Satorri, agility provides a lot of smaller values. And those values have variable interests depending on what you already have and on your needs for the fight in question. That's my point about the "all the relative" or "nothing is fixed" thought : many people want to hear that "this is better than that" and dislike the idea that many things are subject to variations. I saw that too much on my server. And while I was mistaken about DR, the underlying thought might still applies concerning agility, and some tanks have probably good reasons to choose it.

    Indeed, I have a higher confidence in the maths of Tankpoints than these of Rawr, but nonetheless Rawr has a lot of possibilities, and depending on your stuff and how you weights EH vs mitigation in the ProtWar module, you'll see the Agi+Stam gem passing by the Doge+Stam one in the ranking system, even when lowering or disabling the threat ranking, and especially when activating the Chill of the Throne debuff (confirming what I was saying about how the aura was affecting armor usefullness). I see also that this tendancy greatly increases when equiping the best of 3.3 stuff.

    Of course, one can argue about the modelization and the ranking choices, but for my part, I see in that possibility a solid hint that agility may reasonnably be considered worthier than dodge in some cases, and that thoses cases may soon become quiet common.

    I hope my point is less obscure now.
    Last edited by Aradril; 12-11-2009 at 10:07 AM.

  7. #47
    here is a question that should also be asked.

    are we looking for midigation or avoidance or a combination of the 2?

    if we are looking at avoidance, with the chill of the throne debuff, shouldn't parry be looked at also?

    the whole idea, imo, is to hold threat, while avoiding damage.

    prot warriors and prot pallies have shiled block (holy shield), dk's use dodge and parry for this. with the 20% reduction to dodge in icc, parry becomes a good damage avoidance stat .

    for midigation there is armor. armor lowers our damage recieved as does the damage reducing tallents under the respective tanking tallent trees.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShadowWolf2k7 View Post
    here is a question that should also be asked.

    are we looking for midigation or avoidance or a combination of the 2?

    if we are looking at avoidance, with the chill of the throne debuff, shouldn't parry be looked at also?

    the whole idea, imo, is to hold threat, while avoiding damage.

    prot warriors and prot pallies have shiled block (holy shield), dk's use dodge and parry for this. with the 20% reduction to dodge in icc, parry becomes a good damage avoidance stat .

    for midigation there is armor. armor lowers our damage recieved as does the damage reducing tallents under the respective tanking tallent trees.
    The relative value of parry compared to dodge does not change. Adding 10 dodge rating to your gear is as much % avoidance with the debuff as it would be without.

  9. #49
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    ^^


    Otherwise, your question is right. If you want avoidance first and foremost you'll get more mileage from Dodge. If you want armor you won't get it anywhere but Agi in sockets. There is no "this one is best, period" choice, just a variety of options to meet different goals.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

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