Agility vs Dodge Rating; which is preferred?

[Esch]

On one hand, it will mean you get more *absolute* value from the dodge rating you get on dodge rating, but I have yet to see a solid presentation of the interaction between multiple dodge sources, as I am generally of the belief that it is the final dodge% that is regulated and the sub-contributers (dodge rating, agility, defense rating) include a factor somehow related to that. That last part is purely my speculation though and ultimately a bit inconsequential.

I just wouldn't say to take Agility because it makes your diminishing returns less severe.

I have always operated under the logic that dodge rating suffered diminishing returns, but attributes/defense didn't. The catch is that dodge rating is far easier (relatively) to stack in large amounts, while agility/defense do not improve avoidance as quickly. There may be an inflection point where agility/defense overtake dodge rating, especially in Icecrown with Radiance, but I doubt it's within players' reach atm.

Something we need to review. I personally use expertise/dodge dreadstones where I want a socket bonus (or to keep me expertise capped, duh!). If agility is superiour before BoKings, then it becomes a serious consideration for ICC to mitigate the impact of Radiance. The dodge penalty is applied after diminishing returns, in case anyone forgot.

Yes, I called it Radiance instead of Chill of the Throne. It is what it is, not what Blizzard renamed it.

[Satorri]

During the Beta when they announced that they were adding diminishing returns to avoidance, they did so to include that the following things were diminished:

1.) Dodge% from Dodge rating, Defense rating, and Agility
2.) Parry% from Parry rating, and Defense rating
3.) Miss% from Defense rating

I highlighted rating to remind that Defense skill is not subject to or a participant in diminishing returns. Currently, of course, the only way to get defense skill is from rune of SSG.


I honestly don't know what the *actual* relation between the stats contributing to dodge is, but I do know they were generally left out of the consideration in looking for interactions because no one particularly stacks agility (rare few), and defense has only become of interest for people pushing the 'unhittable' cap recently.

If anyone has some more solid sourcing on this, it would probably be more helpful.


PS if Chill of the Throne is Sunwell Radiance, then we wouldn't be affected by it in the Citadel. =P

[jere]

Well, there is no inflection point when looking at agility versus dodge. Agility will always be worse than dodge rating.

As for defense vs dodge, there might be an inflection point, but since defense consists of dodge/parry/miss, 2 of which have faster DR than dodge, so it is hard to say without running numbers.

[ShadowWolf2k7]

i wasnt saying that agi doesnt give ap through other means, direct stats str gives more ap then agi

[Xianth]

I highlighted rating to remind that Defense skill is not subject to or a participant in diminishing returns. Currently, of course, the only way to get defense skill is from rune of SSG.

Your increased chance to dodge/parry/block/miss from defense comes from the amount your defense skill that is above the maximum standard skill at your level (ie. lvl 80 = 400 skill) and not as a converted percentage from your defense rating, so i'm pretty sure all sources of defense are eventually subject to DR when it comes to dodge/parry/miss.

As for the agility, it'd be 99% safe to assume that it contributes towards the pre-DR dodge chance along with dodge rating and defense. Else you'd have rogues stacking agi gems again to get 100% avoidance (remember that Mother Shahraz vid ) or it would become a far too powerful one-stop-shop avoidance (dodge), mitigation (armor) and damage (crit) stat for tanks.

[Xianth]

Well, there is no inflection point when looking at agility versus dodge. Agility will always be worse than dodge rating.

I think this was in reference to the scenario where agility-dodge had no DR, for example (using TBC numbers cause they stick in my head for some reason) as a warrior dodge rating gave you 1% dodge per 18.9 rating and 30 agility gave 1% dodge per 30 agility. So, if agility-dodge wasn't subject to DR (which i'm sure it is, see my previous post) then agi would become better when your dodge rating dodge after DR (what a mouthful) equates to a ~66% return.

[Satorri]

Agility will always be worse than dodge rating.

...for %Dodge.

I know that was implied, but I didn't want this pulled out of context. =)


And Xianth, I'm not entirely sure where the diminishing returns are applied, but the contribution from defense rating is no less subject, that has been said patently.

[Feanorr]

Your increased chance to dodge/parry/block/miss from defense comes from the amount your defense skill that is above the maximum standard skill at your level (ie. lvl 80 = 400 skill) and not as a converted percentage from your defense rating, so i'm pretty sure all sources of defense are eventually subject to DR when it comes to dodge/parry/miss.

I am not quite sure to understand what you mean but if you mean that the defense from the SSG rune is subject to DR, it's wrong. It has been tested over and over.

[jere]

It's important to make a distinction: Defense is NOT itself subject to diminishing returns at all. The defense rating to defense skill conversion remains constant at a given level.

Avoidance gained from Defense ISsubject to DR. So to be clear:

X Defense Rating will always give Y Defense Skill
Z Defense Skill will give varying amounts of avoidance due to DR.

I don't know about the SSG rune. If someone has a source where it was tested, then post it, but the avoidance gained from the SSG rune should still be affected by DR. You still get the same amount of DEF from it, but the avoidance gained should diminish.

If it has indeed been tested over and over, then it would probably be good to post a link so it wouldn't be a point of contention.

Xianth, agility to dodge % is indeed subject to DR. Check out Whitetooth's research over at EJ. I can pull up the link if you want, but it is the Combat Ratings thread there.

[Satorri]

I haven't documented my own tests, but the the 25 defense skill from the rune will always grant 1% miss, 1% dodge, and 1% parry, regardless of what defense you have from defense rating.

So if normal defense skill contributed avoidance is diminished, SSG is a special exception somehow. I'll see if I can find any documentation, maybe someone else has some on hand.

[jere]

That would be good. It's not that I don't believe it, but too many times rumors get started and no one has data but "it has been tested a bunch of times". It's just good to get documentation, especially if it is true. Perhaps even whitetooth tested it (I would have to dig through his thread).

[Martie]

I haven't documented my own tests, but the the 25 defense skill from the rune will always grant 1% miss, 1% dodge, and 1% parry, regardless of what defense you have from defense rating.

So if normal defense skill contributed avoidance is diminished, SSG is a special exception somehow. I'll see if I can find any documentation, maybe someone else has some on hand.

As far as I know, the defense isn't subject to DR, but the the miss, dodge and parry are.

Still, this should be easy enough to check, and I'll do just that as soon as my DKs server goes live again.

[Xianth]

I haven't documented my own tests, but the the 25 defense skill from the rune will always grant 1% miss, 1% dodge, and 1% parry, regardless of what defense you have from defense rating.

So if normal defense skill contributed avoidance is diminished, SSG is a special exception somehow. I'll see if I can find any documentation, maybe someone else has some on hand.

I'm not going to argue with your testing but it still fits into the big picture, I'd imagine it's treated as a special case, effectively increasing your baseline amount of defense skill before the total defense skill is calculated to include the rating value. I seem to remember the warrior talent that was +20 defense would show up on your skill level bar as an increase in the base defense rather than as a bonus (ie. "420" as opposed to "+20"). In this situation the DR is still calculated from the increased defense skill from this new baseline rather than the standard 400. You always get the same amount of defense skill per defense rating and it wouldnt make logical sense to throw in extra calculations when you have still have some stats that work off defense skill that are not subject to DR, like block and reduced chance to be crit.

I think that makes sense for both our points. I'd draw a quick diagram to show what i mean in more easily digestable form but i'm at work, sadly.

I'm guessing it's the only source of increased defense skill in this current expansion, anyone know of any others?

[Synapse]

They specifically mentioned that DR was for "avoidance from avoidance ratings and base stats". Defense skill, like we had in our BC specs and we currently only have on the Carapace/Stoneskin enchants, do not fit that wording.

It also makes sense if you consider the other dk enchant, sword(shatter|breaker) is raw undiminished avoidance.

[Satorri]

EJ re-printed from the original blue post here:
Combat Ratings at level 80 - Elitist Jerks
(Here's the original link: World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums ->) though the forums are "down for maintenance" so I can't confirm it's still there)

For the rune of SSG:
http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f14/4...le-tested.html (thank you, Grav)


The value of Swordshattering is that it gives you double the amount of avoidance towards procs (RS, SoB, etc). Generally speaking now SSG is the common choice because most people subscribe to "Health >> everything else."

[jere]

That's good stuff Satorri!

They specifically mentioned that DR was for "avoidance from avoidance ratings and base stats".

As a note, "base stats" are typically referred to as those you have untalented and ungeared (and in some cases minus contributions from other stats -- think mana and health). Base dodge, parry, and miss are unaffected by DR. Naked dodge is unaffected by DR.

I think I know what you mean by "base stats" (you probably mean things like "agility" in general), but just wanted to make sure the wrong impression didn't go. Dodge from any agility that you get purely from being a human warrior is not subject to DR while agility you get from gear or buffs is.

[Synapse]

That's good stuff Satorri!



As a note, "base stats" are typically referred to as those you have untalented and ungeared (and in some cases minus contributions from other stats -- think mana and health). Base dodge, parry, and miss are unaffected by DR. Naked dodge is unaffected by DR.

I think I know what you mean by "base stats" (you probably mean things like "agility" in general), but just wanted to make sure the wrong impression didn't go. Dodge from any agility that you get purely from being a human warrior is not subject to DR while agility you get from gear or buffs is.

Yes, I meant agility/ strength and the like, because they go under a tab called "Base Stats" in the character sheet!

[Xianth]

EJ re-printed from the original blue post here:
Combat Ratings at level 80 - Elitist Jerks

Yeh, so as it says there it is effectively a talent and counts towards the base values before gains that are subject to DR.

[Satorri]

Yeh, so as it says there it is effectively a talent and counts towards the base values before gains that are subject to DR.

Which "it" are you talking about?

[jere]

Yes, I meant agility/ strength and the like, because they go under a tab called "Base Stats" in the character sheet!

Yes, but when talking about DR, base stats has another meaning. It's important to be clear.