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Thread: Problems in ZA

  1. #21
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    Haz is also a dual weilder, Avoidance takes off in this fight too. We use to two-man heal this on bear attempts. Get the dodge trinkets out and have a shammy drop Grace of Air for the tanks... it does wonders. Also, I like to pray to dodge/parry the lashes, but that's just me.

    One *huge* thing you can do is get the DPS nuking harder during the merged phases, the faster he is out of those the less lashes, frenzies, etc... the tanks will be taking.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leytur View Post
    His gear is on par with my besides the helm. Which is what DOES make it relevant to the OP. Why do people keep saying "you need this to do that" and "you can't have this to do that" when those kinds of rules are, honestly, just stupid?
    How is establishing minimum recommended levels of Health, Avoidance and Threat for certain encounters stupid in any way? That's called "progression" and understanding when you're ready to progress to new content is a lot of what it means to be a Tank.

    That fact that it's POSSIBLE in his current gear isn't relevant. He's failing. If you're succeeding, it's probably because you have more effective DPS or Healers or a better group composition which compensates for what is honestly a slightly undergeared Tank. The OP clearly doesn't have that luxury, and in lieu of finding a different group to run with, he needs to gear up somewhat before he progresses further. I fail to see the "stupid" here.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by hbombs View Post
    Like any other fight gear for the encounter. Halazi is a fight where some more avoidance shines... as an OT or MT.

    For the OP moroes lucky pocket watch would literally solve all his problems.
    Agreed, swapping out gear for specific instances is always the best scenario. But to state that you need x amount of avoidance just to do ZA is kinda silly no? If you're raid can handle it, do it, improve as you go, but don't deter the feller from doing what he's doing because he hasn't reached some mythical %. I agree entirely though that halazzi is an avoidance friendly fight, and moroes is perfect for that.

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  4. #24
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    One big help would be to ENCHANT ALL YOUR GEAR.

    No enchantment on your helm. KoT revered is easy avoidance. You should also put blue gems in your helm.
    No exalted shoulder enchant (get your rep up, you can grind it easy enough)
    No cloak enchant (armor or dodge)
    +6stats on your chest (get HP, or defense or dodge. Stats is for threat, not for survival)
    +12str on your bracers is just fail. Put +12sta.
    No enchant on your gloves (if you're having trouble surviving, put 240armor kit on it)
    30sta/10agi on your legs (40sta/12agi is an extra 120hp)
    No enchant on your boots (12sta, or the 9sta+runspeed)

    Talents: Improved Taunt instead of an extra point in Anticipation is just dumb if you're having trouble surviving. I'd go with 1/2 Imp Bloodrage, 5/5 Anticipation, and 0/2 Imp Taunt.

    All in all, you can get an extra 41defense rating, 19 dodge rating, 360armor, and 46stamina, plus an extra 8 defense points.

    If you're not maximizing your survivability, it's no wonder you're dying.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kazeyonoma View Post
    This is just wrong on so many levels.

    I go into ZA with less than 20 dodge and I've cleared it many times, likewise having block above or close to 30% has absolutely nothing to do with the ability to tank. This single line exposes your lack of knowledge completely.

    Going in with blues will make it tougher but that doesn't mean it isn't doable. The key factor is that you have room for improvement, make sure you run kara to get whatever upgrades you can from there, while obtaining badges to fill in other places with the great badge gear. To say that you need to gem for def/dodge/parry/hit gems is just insane. If your hp is low, you get more hp, then you balance out your avoidance, and then lastly your threat. To say you need hit gems before he maxes his EH for a fight is not only silly, it's outright wrong. EH works no matter what level content you are in, just because he's in ZA doesn't mean it works less. If you had read Ciderhelm's guide at all you would understand that this is a perfect example of when EH shines most. When you are way undergeared for a fight, having more EH helps you live longer for progression fights.
    Do you rly believe what you're saying? i'd give it a 2nd look if I were you.

    Lol, so gem for straight +stam when hes lacking on avoidance by much is ok then? If he needs to get 15stam gems to reach 14k UB well THATS wrong, not having even 50% total avoidance thats wrong too.

    Also when he gets upgrades then this whole thing becomes pointless because the upgrade fix the lack of avoidance right? duh.

    And tell me how can get MT when he doesn't have enough EH/SBV to keep the threat up, MD rotation maibe? well excuse me but thats not tanking properly, 50% overal avoidance is enough for KZ but not for ZA+, having awesome healers and same dps can help the lack of gear but thats not the idea, making your healers having more stress is not what a tank should allow.
    I rly don't know how he can put up some threat by having almost 0 +hit and some expertise. You don't need huge dodge but he lacks everything else. I've seen tanks w crappy avoidance but w huge stam, and he doesn't even has that.
    Last edited by Daimon; 07-02-2008 at 08:40 AM.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daimon View Post
    Do you rly believe what you're saying? i'd give it a 2nd look if I were you.

    Lol, so gem for straight +stam when hes lacking on avoidance by much is ok then? If he needs to get 15stam gems to reach 14k UB well THATS wrong, not having even 50% total avoidance thats wrong too.

    Also when he gets upgrades then this whole thing becomes pointless because the upgrade fix the lack of avoidance right? duh.

    And tell me how can get MT when he doesn't have enough EH/SBV to keep the threat up, MD rotation maibe? well excuse me but thats not tanking properly, 50% overal avoidance is enough for KZ but not for ZA+, having awesome healers and same dps can help the lack of gear but thats not the idea, making your healers having more stress is not what a tank should allow.
    I rly don't know how he can put up some threat by having almost 0 +hit and some expertise. You don't need huge dodge but he lacks everything else. I've seen tanks w crappy avoidance but w huge stam, and he doesn't even has that.
    Ok, there are some fundamental issues you are missing here.

    #1 The OP is only having problems on Lynx, Lynx is a dual weilder, that means the OP has and extra +19% avoidance, your argument that the OP doesn't have the Avoidance for it is moot, they have ~67% avoidance including the DW penalty Lynx suffers.

    #2. If the OP gems for Avoidance (epci dodge/stam gems), they gain ~3.5% dodge rating at the cost of 112 stam... and that's not including vitality, if we include that they would lose 1200hp, a pretty hefty number to give up on a EH fight disguised as an avoidance fight.

    #3. The OP has about 37k EH, the lynx hits me (54K EH buffed) for 60% of my life on a swing, what is he going to do to the poor OP who has 2k less base hp and 2k less armor? It's not going to be pretty. Stam stam stam is the only way they OP is going to get out of this, they need to live long enough to buy the healers time to heal them... and that's going to be done by socketing with +15 stam gems, enchanting gear, and praying to the RNG gods that they dodge or parry saber lashes. Getting the defense enchants will allow you to swap out the +def trinket for the pocket watch as well. 2% dodge will make a difference, but it's not worth giving up all your stam.
    Last edited by Muggs; 07-02-2008 at 08:54 AM.

  7. #27
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    Ok, I see what you're saying if he gets parried would be fatal but he is not capped EH and as of now he's getting wiped with the stam gear set, is true that improving hes enchants/blue items indeed will make him perform better, I do that fight as MT of course, with barely few stam gems but i do have my gear topped w enchs; I like to keep up my avoidance with some lack of EH but still enough to manage, and my healers manage to switch to the raid in corruption totems w/o any problem, the OT do get more dmg than me, and is a druid w good tanking gear (maibe a little bit cat spec over bear).
    Having a better helm will make him allow to get stam and swap some of the other gems for avoidance, but it would be good to see if only by getting all enchanted/patched will make him survive. With those improves he can perfectly gem more in avoidance and maintain 14k UB, and that should be enough. He could even be able to MT him, a bear is very good eating raw dmg, and w high dodge the druid in his group could OT while he MTs, w more avoidance of course.

  8. #28
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    While trying to avoid all the wonderful name calling and abuse on this thread I want to remind all those EH bashers of something. Until 2.4 badge gear came around, NO ONE had more than 18-20% until you got to T6! This new badge gear has suddenly bumped up dodge ridiculously, and good for it, but guys like me and kaz can remember tanking this instance, and tanking it well, with 16% dodge and a ton of BV. EH was the way to go on these fights because it was the only way to go on these fights. So when you say that favoring EH on this fight is dumb, you are insulting all the tanks that did this before the benefit of 2.4. Yes always try to improve your gear, yes get dodge if you can, but a tanks job is still to soak up damage, so as long as it is balanced EH will always be the PRIMARY tanking stat, with everything else a close 2nd.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daimon View Post
    Do you rly believe what you're saying?
    Yes.

    Basically what Muggs and Tatt is what I'm saying.

    And just because you Don't reach an Eh minimum, doesn't mean you should instead further drop your EH by going avoidance. This doesn't HELP.

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  10. #30
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    I really think we're overanalyzing this. His gear is ok, his gemming is fine (except for in his helm). It's the fact that he's missing out on a ton of enchants and his spec isn't optimal for survivability.

    All in all, you can get an extra 41defense rating, 19 dodge rating, 360armor, and 46stamina, plus an extra 8 defense points.
    That's a final talented/buffed difference of 4.04% avoidance, 396armor, and 556hp (if he has kings). I'd venture to say that with that, he will be fine against the Lynx.

  11. #31
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    Agreed.

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  12. #32
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    I think the crux of the matter here is that we're looking at something that can fail vs something that can't.

    Avoidance, as miraculous of a stat as it is, is a random chance. EH is a guaranteed thing. You can bank on the RNG which loves to screw you, or you can go with something that you just know works consistently. Avoidance would be great if avoidance was actually a normalized stat. (hypothetically, it should be a normalized proc per swing such that if you have 33% avoidance, every 3rd hit becomes a guaranteed miss and you could not dodge 2 hits in a row.) But it is not, therefore you're pretty much at the mercy of your saving throw every time the mob swings. I'd certainly rather have so much stam and armor that my healers can keep up with me in worst case scenarios.

    But, this is where EH theory actually gets it's strength from. EH is a buffer. Meeting and going slightly past a minimum amount of EH, defined by the spike damage in the instance you're attempting, you increase your survivability. Raising your EH past those minimums gives extra "comfort margin" but is not much of a change, at this point you raise your avoidance and do actually get a perceptible increase in survival.

    Adapting EH minimums to your raid is important, as well. If your healers aren't as good as someone else's healers, your EH needs to go up. If your healers ROCK, then your EH requirement could potentially stand to go down.

    However, when it comes to threat generation, I'm going to have to say... Avoidance: Less is more!

    But that's another subject entirely.

  13. #33
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    I think the crux of the matter here is that we're looking at something that can fail vs something that can't.
    This isn't an EH-vs-Avoidance discussion, and not everyone agrees with your point of view. Move that argument to the Avoidance/EH discussions if you want to talk about it.

    His question is, "what can I do to help survive on Lynx", and the obvious answer is "enchant your gear and go 5/5 anticipation, maybe try to get the pocketwatch". Not much room for debate here.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kazeyonoma View Post
    Yes.

    Basically what Muggs and Tatt is what I'm saying.

    And just because you Don't reach an Eh minimum, doesn't mean you should instead further drop your EH by going avoidance. This doesn't HELP.
    Hello? when did I write the word nerf over his gear? the contrary; this is funny, I still don't know why you ppl claim that i'm stating go nerf EH and get more avoidance, when he doesn't have much EH to start with; I never said that. Thats an EH fight? fine, you can still get more avoidance and even do it very good, you ppl are overreating, get more dodge/block/parry and even MT the whole thing if he wants, thats it.
    Last edited by Daimon; 07-02-2008 at 11:25 AM.

  15. #35
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    Hey kaz he just called us fat, said we were overeating

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daimon View Post
    Hello? when did I write the word nerf over his gear? the contrary; this is funny, I still don't know why you ppl claim that i'm stating go nerf EH and get more avoidance, when he doesn't have much EH to start with; I never said that. Thats an EH fight? fine, you can still get more avoidance and even do it very good, you ppl are overreating, get more dodge/block/parry and even MT the whole thing if he wants, thats it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Daimon
    Lol, so gem for straight +stam when hes lacking on avoidance by much is ok then? If he needs to get 15stam gems to reach 14k UB well THATS wrong, not having even 50% total avoidance thats wrong too.
    Here's where you make a statement that sounds like gemming for straight stam to help his already low HP is a bad idea. He already clears ZA he just has trouble on Lynx, therefore, he obviously is fine, he just needs to up his avoidance somewhere else through upgrades. The way I read this statement is that he shouldn't be gemming straight stam and instead gemming avoidance.


    Quote Originally Posted by Daimon
    50% overal avoidance is enough for KZ but not for ZA+
    50% is enough for KZ? What beginning tank has 50% avoidance. Unless you farmed KZ for all of its tank drops, I'd find 50% avoidance a bit much.
    And not enough for ZA? So you're saying, 50% avoidance means you should have 15% miss, 25% dodge, and 20% parry, to do a pre-t5 Instance?
    Last edited by Kazeyonoma; 07-02-2008 at 01:58 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Turelliax View Post
    I will never be a kaz.. no one can reach the utter awesomeness of you.
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