Defense caps?

[Creampuf]

I'm new to the level 70 tanking world as well as this forum, and I'm really impressed with all the info here. It'll take me forever to digest it all, but I'm trying!

I've always been prot spec'ed except for a comical foray into arena and pvp instance play. I quickly figured out that that isn't for me.

Anyway, I have a question. I know that the magic number, right now, for defense is 490, which I've hit. But I see a large number of profiles with defenses well above that value.

Now, I imagine that much of that comes simply because better tank gear has higher bonuses. But I also notice that often these same profiles have +def enchants on them.

So my question is this: is there value in having a defense above 490, and how do I compare those increases with other potential tank-supporting bonuses?

If I have 500 defense, for example, would I be better off with a gem that does +4 def and +6 stam or one that does +4 str and +6 stam? (I'm assuming stamina is always preferable as my understanding is that it scales with armor and is therefore always good provided def is at least 490).

Thanks for any help!

[Muggs]

Hi Cream,

490 defense is the magic number to make you crit immune vs. all mobs in the game, including bosses. Going above 490 is not a bad thing, defense is the second best avoidance stat after pure dodge rating (as is increases your dodge, parry, and chance to be missed all at once). As for socketing, you would want to put +12 stam gems in exclusively (a few exceptions) to maximize your health pool after you reach the 490 def mark.

[Darraxus]

490 is the minimum to not be critted by a boss mob. Anything above 490 continues to add to your avoidance stats. Once you hit the 490 cap, I think most tanks start stacking 12 stam gems in their gear.

[Creampuf]

The gems values I choose were purely arbitrary, to frame the question. But I think I get what you're saying.

So if I understand correctly, once I hit 490, stamina should be my main concern, but if I get defense on a piece of gear, that is still a good thing; however, I shouldn't go looking for defense over stamina and should always value stamina more. Is that correct?

[Joeker]

I do not think dodge is the best stat ahead of defense because defense adds to all stats not just dodge.

[Worldie]

The amount of pure avoidance added by defense is lower than the one from same rating of dodge, that's why dodge > defense for pure avoidance.

[Leytur]

Check this out: WoW Forums -> Of tanking Malchazaar, and being 1-shot.

Amazing how many people are successful tanks without being knowledgable. I am Tubalcain on WoW forums.

[Hypatia]

If you're the Tubalcain who posted in that thread, you're dead wrong. Please stop spreading misinformation.

After you are over 490 defense, the following is true:

25 dodge rating gives you ~1.321% avoidance.

25 defense rating gives you ~1.268% avoidance (~0.423% each of hit negation, dodge, and parry) and an additional ~0.423% chance to block.

25 parry rating gives you ~1.116% avoidance.

Dodge rating gives 1.042x as much avoidance as defense rating per point of rating. Parry rating gives 0.880x as much avoidance as defense rating. Dodge rating is very slightly better than defense rating, and defense rating is significantly better than parry rating.

You said in the post you linked:

What on EARTH are you doing with so much defense? 490 is the defense cap. Less with resilience. Once you get uncrittable STOP STACKING DEFENSE! You're better off going with pure avoidance stats: parry and dodge.

Bottom line: get to 490 defense. A couple points over is no big deal but more than 497 means you aren't gemming/enchanting right. Armory is down because Blizzard is too stupid to do maintenance on one or the other or I would look at you. Bottom line 2: make sure melee DPS knows where to stand. That's very noob if they don't know that parries kill tanks.

Bottom line: Learn how the game works before you berate people for doing things that make perfectly good sense. It's one thing to tell people that at their gear level they could afford to use less avoidance and more health (although I'd raise an eyebrow at suggesting that for Prince). It's another thing to tell them things that are flat-out wrong.

[Joeker]

I would not say value stam more than avoidance but I would say that reaching the effective health of the instance is paramount. If you can't reach it then you are completely gimping your raid. So I would say value stam until you reach the point of being at the minimum of the effective health then start on the avoidance track. That way if you do take the hit you can survive it and get healed and continue on.

On a side note straight from the EJ forums:
One final point, defense rating is one of the best avoidance stats, point-for-point:
1 Defense rating = 0.017% dodge, parry, miss (plus other stuff) ~ 0.05% avoidance
1 Dodge rating = 0.053% avoidance
1 Parry rating = 0.045% avoidance
While dodge provides better raw avoidance, you also improve your block rating, and provide a buffer of gear selection by selecting defense when possible.

[Leytur]

If you're the Tubalcain who posted in that thread, you're dead wrong. Please stop spreading misinformation.

After you are over 490 defense, the following is true:

25 dodge rating gives you ~1.321% avoidance.

25 defense rating gives you ~1.268% avoidance (~0.423% each of hit negation, dodge, and parry) and an additional ~0.423% chance to block.

25 parry rating gives you ~1.116% avoidance.

Dodge rating gives 1.042x as much avoidance as defense rating per point of rating. Parry rating gives 0.880x as much avoidance as defense rating. Dodge rating is very slightly better than defense rating, and defense rating is significantly better than parry rating.

You said in the post you linked:





Bottom line: Learn how the game works before you berate people for doing things that make perfectly good sense. It's one thing to tell people that at their gear level they could afford to use less avoidance and more health (although I'd raise an eyebrow at suggesting that for Prince). It's another thing to tell them things that are flat-out wrong.

I don't get it. Nothing you said is in contradiction to anything I said. I think you should read a little closer before calling people out.

Stacking defense past 490 when you can't survive a boss is just plain dumb. you're saying otherwise makes me wonder if YOU actually know enough about this game to comment.

[Muggs]

In short to back up Ley, Avoidance will FAIL, EH won't. If you're uncrittable and your EH is diddly squat but you keep stacking Defense, it's only a matter of time until you eat it like that tank did vs. Prince.

[Hypatia]

Leytur did not recommend stacking EH. He recommended dodge or parry over defense. I quoted all of his advice regarding gear choices in the post he linked to.

Prince isn't a bad place for avoidance, however. (At the same time, you're really unlikely to have enough health when you first get to him to spend time on gemming anything but health.)

Looking at the guy in question: He had 497 defense, which is barely over the crit cap. Certainly nothing to worry about. He says that he was ~13k health—which I suppose is low for these days, but I seem to recall was a bit high back when I was tanking Prince. (I think I was just over 12k? Hard to remember.)


Anyway, my objection is not to suggestion EH or avoidance. It's to the suggestion (which is on topic for this thread, as opposed to EH talk) that defense over 490 is a bad thing, when in fact it is a perfectly fine thing. There's no need to gem for defense unless you need to reach 490—but anything above 490 that your gear gives you is not at all a waste.

[thewalrus012]

For just beginning tanking what would be the benefits of lowering the Defense Cap total by throwing on one piece of gladiator gear (for example lets use the shoulders). These add 19 resilience which should allow you to use more +12 stam gems than trying to socket more +defense.

I unfortuneatly do not know the math of what the Defense cap would be with 19 resilience (im guessing around 475-480? if anyone knows the concrete number please correct me)

[Leytur]

Anyway, my objection is not to suggestion EH or avoidance. It's to the suggestion (which is on topic for this thread, as opposed to EH talk) that defense over 490 is a bad thing, when in fact it is a perfectly fine thing. There's no need to gem for defense unless you need to reach 490—but anything above 490 that your gear gives you is not at all a waste.

I never said otherwise. I said gem/enchant for def after 490 was not a good choice. I also said if you want avoidance +dodge is better than +def per rating point. Both those are true. Your continued chest pounding doesn't make them less true.

Avoid making comments about peoples reading ability. We don't tolerate insults. People come here to learn.

thanks.

[Leytur]

For just beginning tanking what would be the benefits of lowering the Defense Cap total by throwing on one piece of gladiator gear (for example lets use the shoulders). These add 19 resilience which should allow you to use more +12 stam gems than trying to socket more +defense.

I unfortuneatly do not know the math of what the Defense cap would be with 19 resilience (im guessing around 475-480? if anyone knows the concrete number please correct me)

This is an excellent way to do it and I currently have the Gladiator's shoulders as well Stalwart Defender helm which give me like 40 resilience or something. I'm back to 487 def but I was down around 450 I think for awhile--and still uncrittable.

[Muggs]

Well, in my defense I'm at work and my brain is fried -- I for one am thinking about making a crazy avoidance set for my pally due to well... boredom with the game atm >:|

[ebs2002]

Once you get uncrittable STOP STACKING DEFENSE! You're better off going with pure avoidance stats: parry and dodge.

You're not better off going with parry. You're slightly better off going with dodge.

Phase 2 crushes are due to two things:
*snip*

Wrong, Phase 2 crushes will always happen. You can have him fully thunderclapped, and he'll still crush you; he hits too fast for you to keep shield block up through everything, even if he never parries and he's fully debuffed. Against prince, defense is better than dodge OR parry, because defense has a higher passive uncrush return than dodge does.

A couple points over is no big deal but more than 497 means you aren't gemming/enchanting right.

Wrong. I have over 500 defense, and when I'm up against prince I'm around 525, because Prince is an avoidance fight. You can get to 500 defense while gearing for EH and not having a single yellow/green gem in your gear, or a single +defense enchant. Personally, I put 4def6sta gems in my yellow slots when the socket bonus is worth getting (like in my Eng gun).


Now, to the OP:

Your minimum defense needed is 490. From that point, you want to stack stamina and armor until you reach the "EH Minimum" for whatever you're tanking. Once you hit the EH minimum, stack more threat or more avoidance. More avoidance means more dodge rating, defense rating, and parry rating (in that order)...although usually you won't be deciding between 25 dodge and 25 defense on a given slot.

For gems, if you want to go for the socket bonus, 4dodge6sta or 8dodge for red slots, 4def6sta or 8def for yellow, and 12sta for blue. Usually, going with 4___6sta is better for progression, because you get the bonus AND you get more stamina.

[Leytur]

Wrong, Phase 2 crushes will always happen.

I never said otherwise.

Wrong. I have over 500 defense, and when I'm up against prince I'm around 525, because Prince is an avoidance fight.

Wrong. Prince is NOT an avoidance fight. It's a whatever you want to make it fight. I don't stack avoidance for Prince and he hits me like a pansy now. I went EH all the way with Prince and I won. You want to go avoidance go for it. But don't tell someone they're wrong when they successfully tank Prince another way.

[Joeker]

Well If you are having problems reaching the EH of the encounter then yes you can wear some resilience. However, you are not getting the benefits of defense. Point for point you will get more out of defense than you will out of resilience. I personally would not wear it unless I was having severe problems reaching the defense cap and the EH of the encounter. But, if you are just going in to kara with blues then i would value defense over resilience since it will help you a lot more than just stacking stam and resilience since resilience only works for reduction in being crit. If your stam is truly below 12k to 13k I would also look at trinkets as well like the Commendation and one of the Darkmoon Cards. Stam is not always the best answer for every encounter especially for an encounter like prince where you can get insta gibbed in phase 2 due to being parried. I have been in the position where I wished for a little more avoidance on fights like tanking the shaman from Fathom Lord in SSC. That fight does depend on a good amount of stamina and some really good avoidance to survive the length it takes to down him. But enough of the rambling from me.

[ebs2002]

You want to go avoidance go for it. But don't tell someone they're wrong when they successfully tank Prince another way.

Just because you've done it the other way doesn't make it the accepted standard. Pretty much all of the respected posters on tankspot agree that Prince is one of the few avoidance fights in the game.

And you did say otherwise; you said phase 2 crushes come because you either didn't keep him TClapped, or your DPS was on his front and got parried. There's a 3rd thing: that prince always has a chance to crush a warrior tank, and that means that prince always has a chance to double-crush a warrior tank, even considering perfect play. You're spreading misinformation by telling this guy, "you died because you didn't TClap, or because your DPS got parried". You completely ignored the main reason someone gets crushed on prince: because P2 Prince crushes warrior tanks. Period.