Tank Relations

[muulan]

I'm a warrior OT in a medium sized guild that is 4/5 SSC, 3/4 TK, 3/5 MH.
Our guild-lead/raid-lead is the warrior MT and we get along really well. We run 2prot wars, 1 pally tank, 1 feral. The MT never has to tell me when to swap gear and devastate-DPS or pop out for extra healers/DPS. We keep those awkward moments of "we don't need you" or "swap gear" to a minimum. I feel one of the key features of any good off-tank is knowing your place and trying to think of how best to contribute to the raid instead of maximizing your time in the tanking spotlight. Between me and him we've made tanking a team effort and communicate really well.

We've recently switched prot pallys since our last guy that we used in SSC just wasn't cutting it in MH. Our new pally OT was holy and went prot cause he saw how much better he could do than our last tank. Its worked well for us and he is a great player who theorycrafts alot and knows the in's and outs of pally tanking.

But recently there's been alot of internal friction between the warriors and our other tanking classes. Armed with his knowledge from theorycraft sites our pally is increasingly persistent in his demand to MT bosses. I'm open to the idea, except his threat generation is not where it should be. The pally keeps pointing at reliable theorycraft showing pally superior snap aggro but during trash I get lots of complaints about his threat from the DPS and we've had to move him off the first kill target. I can easily outburst threat him initially and keep the TPS going; all with my mitigation set on. We really value him as a member of the tanking team though and probably wouldn't be this far into MH without his help. But I've talked with him extensively and I get the impression that he will never be satisfied in an OT role. Its feels like pulling teeth when we need him to go off-heal (>2k +heal set from his holy days) because no one wants to ask (more like confront) him to swap gear when he's made it pretty clear to us he wants to MT. So we just sigh and watch him throw down his consecrates until he runs out of mana. At least the raid benefits from his judgment of wisdom I guess.

The pally keeps showing me posts about pally MTs in MH/BT/SW etc etc. but those are other pally tanks in other guilds and we can't get him to understand that he needs to build up the trust with our raid and up his threat ability so our DPS doesn't go "WTF!?". It doesn't help that our last pally tank was "the-bad" and our guild have alot of oldschool raiders who had their pre-conceptions of "pallys can't MT" reinforced by said bad pally. This includes the MT who has made it clear he doesn't care for anyone else to boss-tank as hes earned this privilege through his commitment with the guild throughout the years and made the sacrifices needed to keep the position. I've basically been give the task of mediating with the pally (as a third party to avoid drama) and get him to understand that there is only 1 MT in most guilds and that its a reserved position not easily obtained, and that he is a great tank on the hyjal trash (where he is the "MT" lol) but we don't need him to tank on boss fights where the druid has much better OT-threat.

I guess my question this. I've been blessed with a personality that allows me to remain content as a tank behind the shadow of our MT and enjoys the life of OT quite well (you never get the blame! ). Is there any way I can convince our pally tank to see things our way and remain with us? Our druid went through this OMG-I-WANT-MT phase after switching from resto and we were able to get him to calm down. The druid wasn't big on theorycraft though and the pally is 110% convinced by sites like maintankadin.com that he will be a better MT numbers-wise but has become blind to the other complex conditions required to hold such a raid position. I thought this would be the best place to ask since this is a tanking community site and some of you probably have experienced a similar situation (firsthand sometimes). I am great friends with both players and would really like to see this resolved without a gquit. Unfortunately it will likely come to that if nothing is done.

[klor]

As mean as this sounds... The best way to deal with said issue is to let it happen. What would be the harm in letting him tank one boss one week, then let the warrior tank it next week. Use WWS reports and show him the difference. He seems to theorycraft alot, yes? Use facts against him. It may be the easy way out that you are looking for.

In all honesty though, I dont think your paladin is the only one causing the issue. There isnt alot of harm in letting other people tank. I was forced as the MT of my guild because I am the only warrior. We also have two prot paladins and a feral druid. There are plenty of fights where a warrior just is not the ideal tank for the encounter. Sure, we can do it, but does that make it the most efficient? It did not take long for my guild to accept that fact that when I refused to tank a boss, there was a reason for it. Our first Azgalor kill will be tanked by a druid and our first Gorefiend kill was tanked by a paladin. Its just safer.

You said yourself that you and the MT have a very good relationship, but thats not enough to be honest in a tanking squad. You need to find everyone's strengths and weaknesses and utilize them effectively. In all honesty, it doesnt hurt to ...as they say... throw the dog a bone once in a while. What is the harm of letting the paladin tank farm bosses if it makes him happy? How else will he get better if he doesnt get the practice? You can only learn so much from tanking trash and 5mans.

Though, I did somewhat stray from the topic at hand. Your best bet is to just let him tank one boss one week, then let the warrior tank it the next. Use wws parsings on both of them and show to him the difference. My guess is, you'll find the paladin was safer, but the warrior made the boss die faster from sheer threat alone. That may be enough to shush him up, or who knows, your MT may find a new strength in his tanking regime that he refused to see before. Being the MT in a guild isnt just about tanking all the bosses, its about making the smartest decisions when it comes to tanking the bosses...and sometimes sitting yourself is that very decision.

[Honorshammer]

Paladins (in general) tend to be quite competitive TPS wise through most of the game. It's either a gear issue or a functional issue (doing something wrong). I'd be happy to offer my experience and expertise in looking at his gear or rotation from a WWS.

If he's on Maintankadin, he should at least know the basics.

Unfortuneately, WWS doesn't calculate TPS.

Paladin tanking isn't as easy as it looks sometimes. I've been doing it for over a year and I still make mistakes.

I've been given the task of trying to help a new Paladin Tank recruit we have. It's take some time for him to understand that he isn't going to be MT bosses for a while. At least he can see me get the opportunity so he knows it's not a Class thing.

Just make sure the preconceived notions of your old school guys are influencing their issues with a Paladin tank. You want to give the guy a fair shake.

[muulan]

Thank you guys for your input. I have worked out something that has both parties satisfied. It will be up to him to get his stuff ready but the MT was convinced to give him 1 boss out of all BT/MH content to chose from and "show us his stuff". I will be doing a WWS like klor suggested but sadly there is no TPS analysis on WWS as of yet. I will post the parse as soon as its available.
Thank you all again for reading the long post.

[klor]

I knew the page was out there, I just couldn't remember what it was. Ciderhelm reminded me.

Coolyo[dot]org

I dunno if it is busted or not though, I know it was there for a while.

[Honorshammer]

I knew the page was out there, I just couldn't remember what it was. Ciderhelm reminded me.

Coolyo[dot]org

I dunno if it is busted or not though, I know it was there for a while.

coolyo only works for Warriors. It won't work for Paladins or Druids.

Don't give him Rage, I practically beg my Warriors to tank him. He's constantly casting, doesn't melee much (lose some Holy Shield threat), doesn't hit very hard (hard to keep mana up) and you have to move him around (miss Consecrate ticks).

[klor]

Rage is a very low threat fight for a warrior too. I just dont move him during D&D. Just stand in it. -shrug-

[Horacio]

That's a tough one. I'm of the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" mentality and this is a pretty common theme in interclass tank relations.

Let us assume (because its true) the classes can tank equally and its down to gear/skill of the individual. How would it play out if you as the warrior OT demanded a MT face time? Or any other warrior tank. Tank is a tank and when things are going well, why change it up? This attitude in some ways is what pits the two classes against one another. When you strip away all the bullshit its all about ego and really doesn't have much to do with the different classes. The interclass rivalry just magnifies and distorts the issue which appears IMO to be, "I want to be the man"

The functionality and history of the classes plays some minor part but if you have a solid MT who takes care of business, don't change horses mid stream, IMO.

[Ceravantes]

That's a tough one. I'm of the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" mentality and this is a pretty common theme in interclass tank relations.

Let us assume (because its true) the classes can tank equally and its down to gear/skill of the individual. How would it play out if you as the warrior OT demanded a MT face time? Or any other warrior tank. Tank is a tank and when things are going well, why change it up? This attitude in some ways is what pits the two classes against one another. When you strip away all the bullshit its all about ego and really doesn't have much to do with the different classes. The interclass rivalry just magnifies and distorts the issue which appears IMO to be, "I want to be the man"

The functionality and history of the classes plays some minor part but if you have a solid MT who takes care of business, don't change horses mid stream, IMO.

I am of the same mind, there is a learning curve for healers/dps for each tank, no reason to change if there is no problem.

The only exception would be for encounters made easier by another class.

[Fayre]

To be honest though, once things are on 'farm', what's the harm in it?

I think it does you far better in the long run if you have several experienced 'main' tanks who are happy to tank bosses than just one. Otherwise what will you do when the MT goes off on a two month holiday or something?

Now, the pally's performance at the task is another issue. He sounds pretty motivated - I shouldn't think it would be too hard to get him to improve if evidence is available?

[minrog]

I'm of two minds on this one. I'm the warrior MT of our guild (I was an OT for pre-tbc raiding and up through TBC until our two MT's quit the game). I have a Paladin MT in our lineup along with two Warrior OT's and a Feral who is brand new. I miss our Feral MT...

I suppose it depends on how successful you guys are. Our Paladin tank hates tanking and asks to switch to Retribution spec because that's what he wants to play. I can't get him to MT bosses even if I want to because he doesn't enjoy it, though he has resigned himself to doing the AOE tanking because in a practical sense we can't run the encounters without it. I don't know if I'd want to trade him for your guy though.

I would say make him tank bosses when you can afford the extra wipes. It seems all exciting and everything before you do it (which is why everyone and their brother has 2 tanking alts lol) but after 4 or 5 months of it nearly all the tanks I know reroll or respec to DPS. :P

There is a certain amount of resentment that comes from some of the Paladin tanks I've met that they aren't considered "good enough" for MT jobs. A couple of them have felt that any criticism that went their way was because of their class and not their abilities and that sounds like the problem you are having. Don't throw him into the fire but give him some roles and when you provide feedback on failures make it clear that it's the results that count and not the class. Place the burden of success on him and see if he can pull it off. Either way be honest with him about what went wrong, after all it doesn't matter what his class is but what he is able to do with it.

I've seen Shadow Priests MT'ing encounters, not even mentioning the Hunter Pets and other wacky things. If they can pull it off more power to them, but don't waste inordinate amounts of time letting them try.

I find it hard to believe that a Paladin thinks he is going to outthreat a druid on single target mobs. That doesn't seem to correlate with my experiences on stuff like VR/Gruul where we put a Paladin MT/Druid OT scenario. Especially as you move into sunwell I don't think the other tanks can come close TPS-wise to a Druid who is cranking out 1200 DPS while main tanking.