Seeking help with DKP system.

[Finelle]

I'm in the process of starting a raid group to SSC that uses DKP. The characteristics of the system are as follows:

1. 5 DKP earned per hour of raiding, raid night is approximately 4 hours long.

2. Bidding system is Silent Bid, no changes, item cost is equal to highest bid that did not win the item (ie. second highest) or 5 DKP, whichever is higher.

3. There is no bid cap, you may bid in multiples of five up to your current DKP total.

4. New people enter the system with 10 DKP.

I have a few questions that I hope people with more experience running/using DKP can answer.

Firstly, I have been thinking whether to instate a DKP cap to discourage point hoarding. If so, what would be a realistic cap such that bad luck on loot won't screw people over and the cap won't be so high that it might as well not exist.

Secondly, how should we handle on/offspec loot and armor types? The rogues may fairly complain if the lone fury warrior is defaulted all the plate for 5 DKP and thus can bid leather pieces through the roof if he/she's allowed to bid as a full on-spec. A potential resolution is to limit armor types, but if so, then classes with few people get to consistently outbid others on cross class gear. For example, if you bring 3-4 rogues, they can quite literally forget about the Tsunami Talisman, since their leather pieces will cost the moon.



I'm at the verge of scrapping the whole system, because the holes in the system seem big enough to throw Void Reaver through. If the recommendation is to scrap the above, what system would you recommend? I need a system that is simple to administer and understand, rewards learning bosses over endlessly farming old ones, and is not Loot Council (while I have seen this work, I am not confident enough to implement such a potential time bomb).

Thank you all in advance.

[Lavache]

im a big fan of ciderhelm's system discussed elsewhere on the forums here. only issue we have run across is the lack of drops that we need (how many times can the paladin crap drop from lurker???) and/or people holding out for one item and not taking smaller upgrades.

[Ciderhelm]

1) Don't put in a DKP cap to discourage point hoarding. You've already identified the issue with doing that. It's not necessary, and if a player is clearly not improving their character, replace them.

2) Don't restrict bidding on items to specific class/specs. If the other Warriors or Paladins want at plate DPS gear and have been there long enough, why not give them the chance? In practice, players will virtually never pay high DKP for off-spec items, but they will keep competition up so your Fury Warrior example won't be bidding minimum. Don't worry about snipe bidding -- it's obvious when it occurs, it can be prevented before the item is actually looted, and the player who does it can easily be guild removed.

[Kream]

Decide on the goals of your loot system, make those public, then evaluate how well the system is achieving the goals in a month or two, revise if neccessary, repeat.

Just a thought.. if you earn points 5 at a time, bid 5 at a time, why not make it 1 point per hour and 1 dkp minimum bid?

[Finelle]

1) Don't put in a DKP cap to discourage point hoarding. You've already identified the issue with doing that. It's not necessary, and if a player is clearly not improving their character, replace them.

2) Don't restrict bidding on items to specific class/specs. If the other Warriors or Paladins want at plate DPS gear and have been there long enough, why not give them the chance? In practice, players will virtually never pay high DKP for off-spec items, but they will keep competition up so your Fury Warrior example won't be bidding minimum. Don't worry about snipe bidding -- it's obvious when it occurs, it can be prevented before the item is actually looted, and the player who does it can easily be guild removed.

For #2, should the bidding be changed to open bidding in raid chat? What are some of the ways that open bidding can be conducted. Multiple bids allowed, etc?

[Jericho]

The realities of an open or closed bidding system are harsh at best.

A few things... Cider is definitely right when he says a DKP cap is unnecessary. If people choose to hoard their points then they are not getting better and others are. Either you are going to remove them, or their DPS/Tanking/Healing is going to become subpar and you will just flat out not bring them along when making the raid. The name of the game is improvement. Everyday, in every way, we get a little better ...

After spending time in an open bid DKP system in both WoW and other MMO's before it, I would have to warn you against them. People will be more inclined to push bidding high artificially in an open bidding system. In a closed "single bid" system, people will be valuing gear at the prices they wish to spend on it. If Paladin1 thinks that a shield is worth 55dkp and Paladin2 thinks its only worth 30dkp then the Pally who values it at 55 will walk away happy because it was worth that price to him at the time.

That being said, a "per event" earning system will only produce inflation. This is the real reason you can not give a DKP cap. As you raid deeper into the dungeon, things will become worth more and more points as you go along. DKP in such a system becomes worth less and less to those people who are there everyday for every boss and every minute of each fight. While it becomes worth more and more to those people who only show up 75% of the time. The advantages of such a system is that it values every encounter the same. From the first time you kill Lurker to the 51st time you kill Lurker he is worth something to everyone. The major disadvantage of the system is that that "something" its worth diminishes greatly over time. Where 5 points early on in a system is great. When everyone has 450 points it becomes worth less and less. That 15 point item not goes for 250 points. This is why I suggest a zero sum system over any "set point" system. Inflation can and will happen in most zero sum systems, because most guild's proffer bonuses and adjustments to encourage participation on farm content. Yet it is still quite a minimal rate of inflation if done correctly.

If you do intend to use an open bid, 5point per hour/encounter system. Do force bids to be incremented in 5's. It will help you tremendously. However, please prepare yourself for the inevitable. ie The first day something that not many want, or only want for offspec purposes. Because then, on that day, you will see 24 "5"s scroll across your screen when you ask the question "Bids on...". Trust me, from experience, 5 will be the number you see most for the rest of your raiding life.

I still have nightmares of 5's from Final Fantasy bidding in sky...

[Shortypop]

Hi,

This is kinda on topic, but regardless of the system you chose it needs to be completely above board and open - ie. enable people to see what they have earned when and why, what they have bought.

We use gsdkp (guess google should find it) as a way of storing online all the information. You can check who's hoarding, whos spending, whats dropped. I'd suggest playing around with it. Make up a guild and 25 raiders - randomly produce a random set of drops from a month of ssc runs and see what could happen. If you can get the officers online to play multiple characters and ask them to silent bid on how much they would spend - it's artificial but it may help to pick up problems early on.

Regardless of what you choose - be open to suggestions, ask people to give it a few weeks and see how it settles down. Implementing any loot system is a stressful time, and you will find guildies with all sort of different views.

I think all loot systems have their flaws, its a case of minimising them and making it as fair as possible.

edit: one thing to consider is bringing new raiders into the system slowly - ie. being given 5 dkp after first run and the second 5dkp after second, this has the advantage that generally, they will not be able to outbid longer term members on their first raid but have dkp to spend if no one else needs the item, to save it being de'ed. also, think about what you will do if no one is prepared to bid/spend dkp on an item.

[Ceravantes]

Stick with what you have, aside from making it a single bid system, apen Bidding systems leave it open to more problems than single, and zero-sum as another suggested lead to way to much work for a casual guild like yours seems to be.

Personally I always prefered per kill instead of per hour, Through multiple mmo's I have seen people purposefully wipe on farm content to increase raid time, so dkp earned is greater. I used a very similar system to yours, something like 5 dkp per farm boss and progression raid and 10 per boss kill.

As for your questions on off-spec looting/limiting armor types, I will simply try and explain Cider's comment a little more. The whole point of silent single (or even open, to a lesser extent) is that a player assigns his own point value to an item, he pays what he feels it is worth.