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Thread: Raiding with one warrior?

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
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    Raiding with one warrior?

    Howdy folks!

    I'm currently raid leading a 5/6 1/4 guild as a protection warrior. Our tanking core consists of:

    2 protection warriors (one being me, the other looking to swap mains)
    2 feral druids
    1 protection paladin

    I can generally count on solid attendance from all and I guessing across the board our gear is more than sufficient for the content we're working on. (probably Al'ar -> Solarian -> Rage) Each of us easily clears 20k hp for a raid in fairly balanced tanking gear.

    What I'm concerned about, first off, is being a "boss hog." My guys certainly don't mind it, but I'd really like to spread out the tanking opportunities so that everyone gets a chance to improve. It's been bugging me that my TPS always comes out miserable on WWS because I have to spam my own debuffs.

    (offtopic: thunder clap / demo shout resists are reduced by + hit? or spell hit or what? Is it possible to prevent resists altogether?)

    The other issue that bugs me is the debuffs themselves. I'm looking at always having to tank the hardest hitting mob in any multi-tank encounter, because my druids / paladin won't be getting thunder clap. Is it that big of a difference? I run with 2/5 imp demo, and from what I've read TC+Demo is like 40% less damage or something ridiculous. I'd be one of the first to let paladins / druids tank stuff, (heck I was tanking tier 2 on my druid back when feral was terrible), but I'm concerned about the viability without Thunder Clap available. People always say "a dps warrior can run debuffs," but we don't have any around yet. (not to mention its almost cruel to ask a fury warrior to use thunder clap)

    Am I overestimating the difference in damage intake we're looking at? We could start looking for a dps warrior, but we've got at LEAST 4 rogues in every raid. I think I could justify a Blood Frenzy warrior, but I'd like to pickup an enhancement shaman too and I feel like we're gonna hit melee overload.

    Any comments on melee / range dps raid balance? Even encounter specific comments?

    a typical raid group for us currently looks like:
    (it looks like maybe we SHOULD be dropping a prot tank, but my concerns still apply)

    Prot Warr
    Prot Warr
    Prot Pala
    Feral
    Feral
    Holy Pala x3
    Tree Druid x2
    Resto Shaman
    Holy Priest
    Rogue x4
    BM Hunter x2
    Mage x2-4
    Elemental Shaman
    Warlock x1/2
    Shadow Priest x1/2

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
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    493
    Quote Originally Posted by Davi View Post
    What I'm concerned about, first off, is being a "boss hog." My guys certainly don't mind it, but I'd really like to spread out the tanking opportunities so that everyone gets a chance to improve.
    There's enough fights that require multiple tanks for this to not be a major concern. Just always try to use the best tank for the job. For example: a good Bear Druid MT makes healing easier on Tidewalker for most guilds, and a Protadin is useful there for add control.

    It's been bugging me that my TPS always comes out miserable on WWS because I have to spam my own debuffs.
    With no other Warriors around, you'll just have to live with keeping up TC/DS. What helps me the most in those situations, is a good addon that tracks the timers for these debuffs, so I can more easily know when to reapply. I use Chronometer, but there are many other choices available.

    (offtopic: thunder clap / demo shout resists are reduced by + hit? or spell hit or what? Is it possible to prevent resists altogether?)
    I don't believe these were ever moved off of the spell hit formula? I don't know of any solid testing though.

    The other issue that bugs me is the debuffs themselves. I'm looking at always having to tank the hardest hitting mob in any multi-tank encounter, because my druids / paladin won't be getting thunder clap. Is it that big of a difference?
    In a multi-tank situation, the hard-hitter is usually not a big slugger; not having warrior debuffs for the duration shouldn't make or break your attempts. Once you're freed up from whichever add you're tanking, run over and get those debuffs rolling to help out.

    So: the debuffs help a lot, but you can survive without them for many fights.

    I think I could justify a Blood Frenzy warrior, but I'd like to pickup an enhancement shaman too and I feel like we're gonna hit melee overload.
    Proper class balance can help out a lot. 2 of each class is a good target, 3 being preferred for most of the buff/debuff classes. That's something to address via raid invites.


    Any comments on melee / range dps raid balance?
    I usually aim for 8 ranged, 7 melee. Shift it around however you want, most fights it won't impact your raid greatly if you're heavy on one or light on the other.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Irvine, CA
    Posts
    23
    We've been running up through SSC with 1 prot paladin (me), 1 prot warrior, and 2 feral druids. We don't swap out tanks, we just make adjustments to our strats as we go.

    Generally speaking, if I am MT, our prot warrior will keep t-clap, demo and commanding up. If he can't (i.e. he's tanking Tidewalker), then our fury warrior runs down and debuffs the murlocs for me.

    This setup has worked great for us so far, but I can't speak to anything beyond 3/6 SSC at the moment.

    Oh, and we try to aim for 1/3 of our dps to be melee (including the feral druids), and 2/3 casters... roughly.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    London
    Posts
    233
    We did all of SSC/TK with the same setup and only changed for Vashj and Kael'thas.

    7 Healers
    4 Tanks
    Remaining Dps (try to limit to 4/5 melee)

    Kael'thas I used 5 tanks and Vashj 2 tanks.

    I am a big believer if making do with who I have as I hate swapping classes during a raid. Therefore having more druid tanks is an excellent choice as they can switch to dps or even off-heal on certain bosses.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    69
    In SSC/TK we usually run with 2 prot warriors a prot pally and 1 feral druid. Melee dps is always small on our raids with 3 rouges at most and 2 enhancement shammies on a good day. We switch tanks for specific roles. On leo for instance we use either a pally or druid for the quick aggro gain. In Hyjal we use two prot pallies two prot warriors and one druid.

    Healers: we always bring a diverse crowd of healers for buffs and healing styles. We usually have alteast one of each kind but most of the time we just have one enhancement shammy and the rest are pallies druids and priests. But i will say this you dont have to go by what every guide says about what you need. What works for one guild might not work for another. If your current setup is working keep with it. Trying to change raid balance may not always work as intended.
    Last edited by Joeker; 05-07-2008 at 02:26 AM. Reason: I edited it to make it look less like a three year old typing

  6. #6
    Raiding with 1 warrior is alright...

    First off let me come out and just say this ... I am a Raid Leader for a guild who is taking its first step into Sunwell. We are fairly overloaded on warriors. We have 4 Prots, and 1 BloodFrenzy warrior. We have 1 Feral, and only a part time prot pally who switches for us when we can do Hyjal. We are so overloaded on warriors it produces problems in other ways.

    All that being said, raiding with 1 warrior only produces some minor issues. Your TPS is not going to be as high ... Well to be honest, if you are just starting out on these encounters its not going to be all that of a make or break point. SSC in and of itself is not a TPS race. There are mechanics in every encounter that specifically limits DPS output. (Hydross phase transitions, Morogrim Watery Graves, Totems, Whirlwind, Spout). In TK, Void Reaver is a TPS based multi tank encounter where a little mitigation can go along way, but the simple fact that its a bounced threat fight makes TPS more of a competition than a necessity. Solarian threat only matters once she goes Void Walker, Alar is tauntable and a tank swapping encounter. The only encounter you have on your docket that requires TPS of any sort is Rage. Which is gonna be an encounter where you want that other warrior helping out.

    Its of my opinion that 90% of the time a raid made up of 1 Warrior tank and 1-2 DPS warriors is going to go a whole lot better than 1 with 3-4 prots. Blizzard gave us the hybrids for a reason. Our ferals can tank when we need them to, and dps when its time for that as well.

    Your concerns about TC and Demo are well heard, but in the scheme of things they matter little. When you get to a place where its a TPS race between you and that nutty Shadow Priest or Mage, then you will be at a place where mitigation takes the back seat anyway and your healers should be capable of healing you through the extra damage done.

    As for proper class balance... This is where you really need to take a look at yourself and your raid. Everyone loves a rogue, but 4 of them in the same raid is actually taking something from you more than its giving you. If the fight does not require mind numbing or wound poison or require interrupts... then you are doing yourself a disservice with that many rogues. Grab a class that gives you some sort of synergy. Sit a rogue and get a ret pally or a dps warrior. Either of which will increase the dps output of your melee group more than a single rogue could do (in equal gear). I am a huge advocate for synergy in raid groupings... You are gonna get a whole lot more out of having another mage or lock in that group with the BM Hunter, the ele shaman and the 2 mages than you would out of a rogue.

    In the end its all about making your personnel happy with their raid time and the level of fun they get to have. That being said, my suggestion would be to ask your warrior to change to Arms or even Fury if he likes, and make sure he is willing to tank if you get in a bind. You are more than covered with 2 ferals, a prot pally and yourself. There is not a single multi tank fight in ssc/tk/hyjal or bt that you wouldnt do just fine with those 4 tanks and a DPS warrior to OT. Any DPS warrior can tank the priest in the Karathress fight. After that, all you need is a tank or 2 for doomguards in Azgalor, 3 tanks for Gurtogg, 2 for Supremus... 3 for Council. As long as your DPS warrior is willing to respec if you get in a bind attendance wise, you are golden. Debuffs are not that important beyond sunder, and with a DPS warrior in the raid, you are just as well off. The only thing you will be missing is that Battle Shout you wont be getting.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    172
    Take Main Tank priority on the next two Warglaives of Azzinoth that drop, respec to Fury and become the debuffer for the two Druid Main Tanks. Make the other Warrior go Arms/Fury for Blood Frenzy.

    Heh.

    I'm sorry I don't have anything real to add but the above scenario seems to occur quite often. :P

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    286
    I don't know I do both, MT and debuff even with other warriors around. It's not to hard to swap in a tclap or demo shout usually. You just get used to it. I use elk buff bars to track the important warrior debuffs on my target so I can see when they expire or if someone else took them over.

    My view on the matter is that if I can do good threat and debuff I do it and let the dps stay in thier optimal rotations. If I can do good enough threat without the only shammy I let the melee have them to boast our raids DPS.

    My advice is try not to be greedy with the perfect warrior setup all the time, but take what you need when you really have to have them.

    Separately if it's only 1 or 2 of your dpsers who are really pushing your threat while the rest of the raid isn't ever close tell them to back off and then ask the rest of the raid to step up and stop making those 2 do all of the work for them. DPS is a group effort, the more the dps is spread out across the raid the more raid DPS they can do vs the one tanks TPS.

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