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Thread: Measuring Your Effectiveness

  1. #1
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    Measuring Your Effectiveness

    TankSpot Podcast #12
    Measuring Your Effectiveness
    Patrick O'Callahan "Ciderhelm" and Joshua Allen "Lore"
    38:48


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    Direct Download For This Podcast

    Podcast Information
    This podcast covers how you can effectively measure yourself as a raid and 5-man tank. It covers player interactions, situational awareness, mods, cooldowns, and gear issues. It also answers member-submitted questions regarding 490 Defense for Illidan flame tanks, how Expertise measures up, and how to handle a large number of abilities at once while tanking.

    When available, Donors will see both the outlines and podcasts in advance of their post date.


    Pre-Recording Outline
    The following is a rough bullet point created prior to recording. Additions were made during recording that are not represented in this.

    News
    -Fortifications (4th Edition)
    -Marmots can't really be considered "woodland creatures" their habitat is Alpine and sub-alpine which are generally considered above tree line.

    Questions

    Introduction
    Tank is only role that has synergy with both healers and with DPS
    -Talk w/ them!
    -They're only pure evil humans

    Doing below 600 TPS regularly? (Warrior)
    If so, your rotation may be wrong.

    Mods/Tools
    --Omen is wrong, buggy
    ---DPS wasn't catching me!
    --Don't trust it
    WWS
    --TPS calculator in Theory & Articles forum
    --Compare to other guilds
    Recount
    --Death reports (broken at the moment)
    EavesDrop/Grim Reaper
    Lore's charts!

    Cooldowns
    Are you adjusting for latency?
    Are you always on cooldowns for rotation abilities?
    Do you know when to use trinkets?
    Are you able to watch healers?
    Are you able to watch the encounter and timers?

    For 5-mans
    Quickly preventing mobs from attacking healers?
    Assisting in getting mobs off DPS? (assuming they aren't awful)
    Do you keep trying instead of giving up mid-pull?

    Gear
    Looking at the whole of the gear?
    -Do you understand stats instead of just looking at EH or Avoidance
    -Do you understand clear upgrades for content coming up
    -Listen to the gear podcast and check the forums for more
    Why are you dying?
    -Took too much damage too fast -> get more EH
    -Healers ran out of mana -> get more avoidance
    --This happens a lot in Sunwell


    References
    New Warrior Reference Guide (In Progress)
    Protection Ability Rotation
    Coolyo.org
    Roana's WWS to TPS Converter
    bagelbite's WWS to TPS Converter WebApplication



    Corrections & Clarifications
    Got any?


    Did you find this subject utterly boring? Please, suggest topics and discussions, and ask questions for us to include in our upcoming podcasts.

    Last edited by Kazeyonoma; 05-15-2008 at 08:59 AM.

  2. #2
    Tertiary!

  3. #3
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    Any suggestions on a mod to let me know visually when abilities are off cooldown or otherwise ready to use? I'm using Parrot for my combat text. It lets me know when abilities like Revenge or Overpower are up, but I can't seem to reliably get a mod to tell me when my Shield Block is off or nearing the end of it's cooldown. I hate having to look down at the action bar buttons to see this information. I'd like it presented to me, front-and-center with the rest of my information.

    Edit: One thing I just noticed is Parrot may not be fully working with 2.4. I may switch back to SCT until Parrot2 is released, but I'm not sure SCT has the options I'm looking for either.
    Last edited by tobarstep; 05-05-2008 at 06:23 AM. Reason: Thought of something new.

  4. #4
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    55 degrees celsius would be about 131 degrees fahrenheit. Pretty damn hot, I'd say.

  5. #5
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    You mention that you should have a second warrior keep up demo shout and thunderclap. While a fury / arms warrior should certainly be given demo shout, it's going to be a lot more frustrating for a DPS warrior to keep up TC than it is the tank. He's got to stance dance at a rage loss, rebuild rage (since they won't have tac mastery), cast, then dance again.

    TC isn't terrible threat, so it shouldn't be a big deal to slip it in place of a devastate every 25-30 seconds (depending on how worried you are about incoming damage if you get a resist), unless you're really, really having threat problems. In which case you can probably afford to not debuff the mob anyway so you get more rage.

  6. #6
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    Just a note: Lore mentioned expertise being more valuable than spelldamage for a paladin at around 800 spelldamage. Dorvan's conclusion was expertise rating was equal to spelldamage at around 825 TPS, not spelldamage.

  7. #7
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    Nice Podcast, good info.
    Last edited by Kazeyonoma; 05-05-2008 at 01:21 PM.

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    I will never be a kaz.. no one can reach the utter awesomeness of you.
    http://i.imgur.com/3vbQi.gif

  8. #8
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    Coolyo.org seems to only work for Warriors.

  9. #9
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    Quaternary!

  10. #10
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    Everyone thought I was weird because I said I click healthstones, pots, shield wall and trinkets as well as last stand. I really never liked having them key bound due to the fact of either having a hard time reaching it or accidentally hitting it and wasting a long cool down. Now I know I am not alone. Great podcast as well keep em' coming.

  11. #11
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    I'm having trouble working out what my actual TPS is for a "stand and deliver" fight because I don't tank any of those...

    I'm "trash only" in Hyjal so that our bears and prot warriors have something to do, though I did tank Archi one week, and I've done Kaz a couple of times to prove a point.

    In BT I only MT Mother & Illidan (switched from Flame tank to MT after our warrior emo-transferred). I may ask to tank Teron this week so I have a decent TPS test.

    For Mother:
    • I wear some SR - about 200-ish buffed, 3 pieces?
    • The cow silences frequently. Think Maiden.
    • DPS are totally gimped anyway, as they're in full SR

    With all that, I posted 655 + 105 from heal-procs = 760 TPS.

    At Illidan I posted 360+104=464 from heals, but the fight is full of phases where I'm not tanking, so it's a useless metric. For P1 I blow wings and DPS is pretty much uncapped other than our top couple of warlocks. Last warrior kill before the emo-quit was 451 personal, so I guess I still have some catching up to do, but his gear was much better than mine.

    What's a good fight to measure tankadin TPS on, given we have a balanced tanking team of war/druid/me for most runs?

  12. #12
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    Anyone know if its possible to get a version of coolyo for paladins too? I can't seem to use the offline one at work properly.

  13. #13
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    Interestingly, Coolyo and the Ruby Script give different answers on the same parse. Awesome...

    Anyway, I have to use the Ruby version because I'm not a warrior.

    Lore: Could you post your TPS according to the Ruby script from your last Brute kill? We had Kalec at 20% last week with a shitty raid makeup (for example: me healing in my leet T-4/T-5 healing gear the first time I'd ever had points ion the Holy tree....) So we're expecting to get to the enrage this week... and maybe kill him, unsure how hard the enrage is.

    Anyway, I'm going to MT Teron this week to do a TPS test, my theorycraft says I want to post 1500 TPS if I'm going to keep DPS below me or about 1200 if I'm willing to cope with the "range cap". That assumes rogues and warlocks at 2400 DPS, not using shatter/vanish.

  14. #14
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    Coolyo and the Ruby script calculate healing threat differently. I looked around trying to find some hard numbers on healing threat but was unable to. I also tried to duplicate the healing threat results from coolyo and wasn't able to do that either(though I didn't try that hard). If you can find me the math/proofs for threat by healing I'll update the script.

  15. #15
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    One quick question: when you said that one thing to see in the WWS reports if you're doing things right it's that the first ability on the list should not be White Melee damage, you were referring to just damage or threat ( (abilty damage threat + ability innate threat) x threat multiplier )?
    I was looking at one my report from SSC and most of my damage came from Swings, but on Roana's wws-tps I got SS and HS above Swings.
    So I'm doing things right?!

    /Sat.

  16. #16
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    It depends on the encounter, Saturnia, and I doubt I gave that section the justice it deserved. Can you PM me your WWS?

  17. #17
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    I do enjoy listening to your podcasts alot and find them very helpfull. tho in this one I lack some info. you really gave the Omen threatmeter quite a slagging on affectiveness for measuring aggro. but if you don't like Omen. what do you use instead?

    ps. not all bears are sweaty and stinky ^^

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ladina View Post
    you really gave the Omen threatmeter quite a slagging on affectiveness for measuring aggro. but if you don't like Omen. what do you use instead?
    For measuring TPS during the encounter? Nothing. There's no accurate tool for doing so. What we do is check our TPS by looking at WWS reports after the raid.

    That's not the same as looking at our Threat on Omen and judging when players are about to pull aggro, which is something we do.

  19. #19
    Is there a tool that would let us calculate our theoretical max threat given our specs/gear/buffs -- like a maxtps.com :P ? It would be handy to see a good distribution of TPS on specific fights given gear levels.

    The Lurker Below
    T4 Warrior - 400-600 TPS
    T5 Warrior - 500-700 TPS
    T6 Warrior - 700-900 TPS

    Hydross
    ....

    Tidewalker
    ....

    -------------------------

    I find when I run my TPS through Coolio on any fight but a pure stand there and tank it type fight it is a lot lower than I would hope for. But my dps which is just now starting to nip at my heels (and only one or two members really but even they have threat drops...) don't seem to be threat capped by any means. I know I can pick up my roation a bit better. Most fights my rotation seems closer to ss, rev, dev x 3 (or 4) - instead of ss, rev, dev x 2 so I know I can up my threat a bit, but I don't really know where I should be at.

    ----

    /sigh I can build one I suppose... not like I don't have anything to do this weekend
    The beast is getting hungrier.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joeker View Post
    Everyone thought I was weird because I said I click healthstones, pots, shield wall and trinkets as well as last stand. I really never liked having them key bound due to the fact of either having a hard time reaching it or accidentally hitting it and wasting a long cool down. Now I know I am not alone. Great podcast as well keep em' coming.
    i used to have shield wall bound to backspace, since its an easy key to hit in a panic. occasionally when attempting to type something out before a boss pull and i wouldnt have my chat-edit box open... taunt buddy graciously informed the raid that i had activated shield wall and would need additional healing...

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