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Thread: Too much resillience, not enough Defense ?

  1. #1
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    Too much resillience, not enough Defense ?

    Hello !

    Lately I've been working on getting a few Arena pieces : Got S1 shoulders, S2 Shield and today I bought the S3 Breastplate. I'm now sitting at 100 resilience.

    I haven't been doing any Raiding for a few months now (last time I did it was when 2.3 came out).

    Today I joined a new guild in which I was told I'd be able to raid when I want it to. So my expectations are I'll be heading to kara over the next few weeks.

    My def rating is at 450 at the moment. I know it's far from the 490 I should be having for kara but since I have 100 resilience, I know I'm still crit immune.

    What I do wonder however is will my avoidance be too low ?

    I see that I still have some DPS / utility gear on me (legs, carrot on a stick comes to mind) this does however doesn't change the question, should switch some PvP gear for PvE gear (my previous pieces, random greens or question blues)

    Should I gem from STA or for avoidance ?

    Here's my armory :
    The World of Warcraft Armory


    Thanks for your help !

  2. #2
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    I relogged and put on my tanking gear, (forgot to remove the carrot on a stick trinket though).

    My final stats are :
    491 defense
    15.64 % bock
    15.77 % Parry
    11.84 % dodge
    16.5 K armor
    109 resilience
    50 Hit Rating
    16.25 % Crit
    12 Expertise
    This does leave me with only 12044 HP

    I guess that with the current Resilience I have I could drop some of my defense to increase my stam. What would you resocket / change ? (I intend on put + 12 stam on both remaining sockets of my Breastplate)

  3. #3
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    First off, you have WAY too much resilience. 5.6% is the crit cap.

    Second, as a warrior, resilience is just horrible to have as a tank. You crit cap quicker, but defense just does SO much for you in terms of avoidance and helping push crushes off the table.

    Gemming for straight Stam or Avoidance is usually not the best thing. You want to keep a good balance.

    Stam helps you take the hits you don't/can't avoid in early raiding instances.

    Avoidance is more beneficial in the long run, but unless you can gem to be instantly uncrushable, you want to be stammy enough to be able to take at least two crushing blows back to back + have about 2-3k left just to give the healers some time to catch up.

    Having said that, 12k health is kinda low for anything after Kara. And until you get into a situation where you're threat capping DPS, I might shed some expertise and DEFINITELY shed hit rating for more survivable stats. It doesn't matter how much threat you can generate when you're dead.


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  4. #4
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    odd, double post. what's going on here! >.<


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  5. #5
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    I didn't do much 5 mans, that explains why I have very few instance gear.

    I did some arena, enough to get the S2 shield (which was listed in Berg's guide)

    Did some BG to get the shoulders (also listed in the guide)

    As for the Breastplate, I was stuck with either a lvl70 green or a ilvl100 blue, it was a definitive upgrade when I took it

    So stacking those 3 raised my resilience, to what I have now. (109)

    Should I drop defense rating gems in favor of pure stam gems ?

    I guess that since I'm way above crit cap (I could get as low as 421 def and still be crit immune) I can allow myself to lose some def rating in favor of some stam.

    However that would lower my overall avoidance.

    What should I aim for ?

    lower my def around 440 replace those gems that add +def by pure stam gems

    after that starting to lower other stats such as +hit / agility until I have around 15khp unbuffed ?

    I plan on running kara only for now, maybe a few heroics if given the chance to.

    Thanks again for the help !

  6. #6
    Let's start by addressing your main question. In my opinion, you can have too much resilience and not enough defense. On top of reducing your chance to be crit, defense also reduces your chance to be hit, as well as increases your chance to dodge, parry, and block attacks. So, low defense gives you low avoidence, which is obviously something to avoid. As for whether you do have too much resilience and not enough defense, I'd say that you are fine at the moment. However, I wouldn't pick up any more pvp gear for your tanking set.

    Your second question was about gemming. I'm normally a proponant of pure stamina gemming, but there are pieces that lend themselves well to sticking a hybrid stam/avoidence gem in for a socket bonus. The only one that comes to mind from pre-raid gear is the Engineering helm.

    Now for your big question, what to change.
    First lets look at your spec. Anticipation and Vitality are not maxed out, but they should be. Tacticle Mastery, Imp Taunt and Imp Defensive Stance could be dropped in order to fill out the first two, I'd suggest dropping Tacticle Mastery completely and taking two points out of Imp Defensive Stance. They won't help much for tanking Kara, but Imp Taunt will help alot in 5-mans(especially in PuGs). The two points in Iron Will could be better spent in Imp Heroic Strike.

    Next lets look at gear. Your belt needs to be replaced. I'd suggest [item]Sha'tari Vindicator's Waistguard[/item] as it's a quest reward from the Arcatraz key chain. Your legs could be replaced by [item]Timewarden's Leggings[/item] from KoT revered rep. Your green ring could be replaced, I'd suggest getting [item]Wind Trader's Band[/item] from a netherstorm questchain until you can get either [item]Band of Determination[/item] from normal Magister's Terrace, [item]Elementium Band of the Sentry[/item] from Arcatraz, or [item]Protector's Mark of the Redemption[/item] from an SMV questchain. For your missing trinket, if you don't have [item]Adamantine Figurine[/item] already, get it from Shadow Labs. Once you have that, I'd suggest getting your netherwing rep up for [item]Commander's Badge[/item]. You could also stand to upgrade your sword. Nether's are cheap anymore(I've seen them as low as 60g on my server). Your neck could be replaced by [item]Shattered Sun Pendant of Resolve[/item] once you pick up a bit more avoidence. That should cover your gear pre-kara and pre-heroics.

    One last suggestion I'd like to make: run 5-mans. Run them over and over again until you know the pulls, then move up to heroics. Heroics will open up a whole mess of upgrades for you, and, more importantly, you'll refine your tanking skills a lot better than you will in Kara.

  7. #7
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    I honestly don't know where the expertise come from, I know I have defiance that gives me 6 expertise, but where do the rest come from... I can't find it.

  8. #8
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    Or you could try running 5mans to actually get some gear to raise your avoidance? 11% dodge is going to get you destroyed in Karazhan especially since you only have 12K hp. This is prime example of when straight EH is bad. Your avoidance stats are way too low. You're just not geared for Karazhan yet. Unless you take some very good healers, you're going to be the weakest link of the raid. :-/
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  9. #9
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    For raiding, you don't want to drop defense.

    You're at 491, which is Defense Crit Cap (490). You can shed your resi gear for more stam/avoidance gear.

    In PVE, PVP gear just sucks for certain classes. Most actually.
    PVP gear rocks for druids though


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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by kittikat View Post
    For raiding, you don't want to drop defense.

    You're at 491, which is Defense Crit Cap (490). You can shed your resi gear for more stam/avoidance gear.

    In PVE, PVP gear just sucks for certain classes. Most actually.
    PVP gear rocks for druids though

    Kitti, you should hush when you dunno what you're talking about =P

    The pvp shoulders, chest(especially s3), and shield are the biggest EH upgrades pre-kara. They are fine, the rest of his gear is just lacking due to his low avoidance.
    [2-07-08 08:57 AM] Enelrad: hahaha, that and you're ugly! Ugly tanks tank better
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  11. #11
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    I didn't planned to get any other PvP rewards for my tanking set. I really want to work on the rest of my gear.

    to upgrade my sword, I'll have to max out BS before that (it's still at 368), I'm working on that slowly but surely.

    For the helm, I planned on powerlevelling eng as soon as my alts hits 70, at that point shel will drop mining (my alt will now be my miner)

    I'll try to work toward doing some 5 mans and get the leggings 1st (just need 1 more BM run to get the rep necessary)

    I'm doing my SSO dailies as often as my schedule permits, that neckpiece will be a nice upgrade.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by klor View Post
    Kitti, you should hush when you dunno what you're talking about =P

    The pvp shoulders, chest(especially s3), and shield are the biggest EH upgrades pre-kara. They are fine, the rest of his gear is just lacking due to his low avoidance.
    I said PVE gear in general is far superior to PVP gear when it comes to raiding. I didn't say anything about "pre-kara" raiding.

    [item]Panzar'Thar Breastplate[/item] is far superior to [item]Vengeful Gladiator's Plate Chestpiece[/item] because of the added block value and rating and defense/avoidance.
    [item]Mantle of Abrahmis[/item] is better than [item]Vengeful Gladiator's Plate Shoulders[/item] because of the added avoidance and the Vengefuls require a personal rating.
    And I'd still say [item]Shield of Impenetrable Darkness[/item] is a better choice over [item]Vengeful Gladiator's Shield Wall[/item] because the shield block is about the same, but the shield drop from Nightbane has better avoidance ratings. This also allows him to drop his +def gems in favor for more stam/avoidance gems.

    The three drops come from Nightbane and Netherspite. Which he should be able to get easily with his current tanking stats.

    I think I know pretty much what I'm talking about. Resilience is worthless in PVE for warriors.

    Here's a good list of what you can get in Kara:

    Head - [item]Warbringer Greathelm[/item] - Prince

    Chest - [item]Panzar'Thar Breastplate[/item] - Nightbane

    Shoulders - [item]Mantle of Abrahmis[/item] - Netherspite

    Belt - [item]Crimson Girdle of the Indomitable[/item] - Moroes

    Wrist - [item]Vambraces of Courage[/item] - Attumen

    Hands - [item]Warbringer Handguards[/item] - Curator

    Legs - [item]Wrynn Dynasty Greaves[/item] - Curator

    Feet - [item]Battlescar Boots[/item] - Chess

    Back - [item]Gilded Thorium Cloak[/item] - Illhoof

    Trinket - [item]Moroes' Lucky Pocket Watch[/item] - Moroes

    Shield - [item]Shield of Impenetrable Darkness[/item] - Nightbane

    Weapon - [item]King's Defender[/item] - Chess
    Last edited by kittikat; 04-23-2008 at 09:38 AM.


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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by kittikat View Post
    I said PVE gear in general is far superior to PVP gear when it comes to raiding. I didn't say anything about "pre-kara" raiding.

    [item]Panzar'Thar Breastplate[/item] is far superior to [item]Vengeful Gladiator's Plate Chestpiece[/item] because of the added block value and rating and defense/avoidance.
    [item]Mantle of Abrahmis[/item] is better than [item]Vengeful Gladiator's Plate Shoulders[/item] because of the added avoidance and the Vengefuls require a personal rating.
    And I'd still say [item]Shield of Impenetrable Darkness[/item] is a better choice over [item]Vengeful Gladiator's Shield Wall[/item] because the shield block is about the same, but the shield drop from Nightbane has better avoidance ratings. This also allows him to drop his +def gems in favor for more stam/avoidance gems.

    The three drops come from Nightbane and Netherspite. Which he should be able to get easily with his current tanking stats.

    I think I know pretty much what I'm talking about. Resilience is worthless in PVE for warriors.

    Here's a good list of what you can get in Kara:

    Chest - [item]Panzar'Thar Breastplate[/item] - Nightbane

    Shoulders - [item]Mantle of Abrahmis[/item] - Netherspite

    Belt - [item]Crimson Girdle of the Indomitable[/item] - Moroes

    Wrist - [item]Vambraces of Courage[/item] - Attumen

    Shield - [item]Shield of Impenetrable Darkness[/item] - Nightbane

    Legs - [item]Wrynn Dynasty Greaves[/item] - Curator

    Feet - [item]Battlescar Boots[/item] - Chess

    Back - [item]Gilded Thorium Cloak[/item] - Illhoof

    Trinket - [item]Moroes' Lucky Pocket Watch[/item] - Moroes
    I'm not trying to turn this into a flame post. However, s3 chest is far superior to panzar in every aspect short of the ~1.2% avoidance panzar gives over all the other stats s3 gives. Warriors do not need ALOT of avoidance. I am main tanking MH/all of ssc/tk right now and I only have 19% dodge and 16% parry. The point of the OP's post was asking what he needed to get to start Karazhan. With 11% dodge, he wont be able to tank past opera without really good healers or alot of consumables and a struggle. I'd wager to say Moroes will even give him a fit and lets not even talk about Maiden.

    I suggest the OP reads over the EH versus avoidance thread and run more 5mans. Build your gear set up and dont think Karazhan is easier than heroics, because its not, definately if you're the tank. There is a very nice guide of pre-karazhan gear you can look up in the armory section that will help you in doing so.
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  14. #14
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    Umm, I have to disagree with Kitti. Yes his avoidance is low, but I would drop my pantharzar in a heartbeat if I had the rating to get S3 chest. I am 1 week away from S2 shield, and would not pick up nightbane's unless it was about to get melted. Maybe because his gear has some holes in it right now, but for a T4 tank with full tanking gear any of those 3 pvp pieces would be a huge EH upgrade. You might favor avoidance, but I like giving healers breathing room and less damage spikes.

  15. #15
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    I'm just basing my knowledge on what our MT geared for. He was deadset on avoidance and pushing crushing blows off the table by the time we hit gruul's.

    It worked well for us and we only ever ran 3 healers in kara.


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  16. #16
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    wow, so much replies, so much opinions, I like it !

    I've had the occasion to OT in kara up to Maiden / BBW (wont' speak much about those fight since the OT is quite irrelevant there). As far as Moroes is concerned, from our few kills (few attempts also, moste of teh wipes were because we had a combo of blind + gouge on the MT + OT) we had it went quite well (I was the OT for those fights though) But still, Moroes's damage was not so bad, unless I was garroted. (at that point I could feel I was a burden to heal, as since my hp was so low, I needed attention our healers more quickly than it would normally be necessary).

    I guess I'll have to try it out and find the "sweet spot" between less def and more stam (I can't socket out of resilience). Once I get more upgrades form 5 mans / badges (eventually) I'll be able to swap out some pieces.

  17. #17
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    kitti I have never seen anyone run more than 3 healers in kara. His biggest weakness right now is his hp, not his avoidance. PVP gear will up his hp much quicker than avoidance tank gear. Maybe I suck, but I would be frightened trying anything in upper kara with 12k hp. I would rather have 3-4k more hp and take one extra shot every minute or two then making my healers have to spam heal me because I drop low so quickly.

  18. #18
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    Worry not, I don't intend running anything past kara for now.

    Heck I did so few 5 mans that I won't even set foot in an heroic before learning the content on normal first.

    90 &#37; of my gear was either crafted, bought on the AH, Quest rewards, PvP rewards. very few of it comes from instances / raid.

    Before running I'll have to learn to walk :-D

  19. #19
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    Oh, and forgot, don't bother with adamantite figurine, do the netherstorm for dabiri's enigma, better tank trinket in my opinion. Get a khorium destroyer crafted, big EH improvement. If you are looking for more avoidance, I would work on mech till you feel comfortable with running it on heroic. It is the easiest heroic IMO, so 4 quick badges, plus sun eater > fireguard, or even blazeguard for your gear. With the PVP pieces you are wearing, threat should not be an issue so do not worry about switching weapons. SSO rep neck would be very nice for you. Everything else you should pick up from kara or badge gear.

  20. #20
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    kitti, warriors at level 70, naked, spec'd prot, can hit shield block and be uncrushable. there is no reason to add extra avoidance to reach that.

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