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Thread: Understanding Tank Gear

  1. #1
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    Understanding Tank Gear

    TankSpot Podcast #5
    Understanding Tank Gear
    Patrick O'Callahan "Ciderhelm" and Josh Allen "Lore"
    1:20:16

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    Last Week's Tanking Podcast:
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    Podcast Information
    This podcast covers many of the details regarding tank gearing choices for Warriors and Paladins. It begins with some of the trivia and an explanation of where stats for handling damage and stats for building Threat are in relation to each other. It includes a lengthy advice and suggestions section covering gear choices, gems, enchants, and other aspects of gear theory. Whether you know a lot about theory or not, this will be a good way to pass farming time.

    When available, Donors will see both the outlines and podcasts in advance of their post date.


    Pre-Recording Outline
    The following is a rough bullet point created prior to recording. Additions were made during recording that are not represented in this.

    Intro
    -Talking about Stats and Gearing
    -Questions
    -First, news! Grab shirt and model it
    -Doing this podcast live. We may need to move to own vent server
    -Also, libsyn, subscribe through Itunes now
    -This topic is general advice for 5-man and raid tanks
    --Assumes you know basics

    Questions for Lore


    Stat Trivia

    -Defense
    --Superior Stat
    ---Not same gem color as Dodge
    -Dodge
    -Not from behind!
    -limits crushings best
    --eat charges!
    -Parry
    -Speed up
    --Counterattack Lodestone
    -Block
    --Works on ranged attacks


    Discuss Threat/Defense Stats
    -Multipliers vs. Base Stats

    Handling Damage
    -Stamina/Armor EH
    -Defense/Avoidance
    -Block Rating
    -Block Value
    --Dual Purpose (warrior)
    --Still good for AOE tanking (paladin)

    Threat
    -Expertise
    --Dual Purpose
    -Hit
    --Reduces taunt resists as well
    -Block Value
    -Strength
    --Don't underestimate
    --Buff for this
    -Spell Damage (Paladin)
    --Best threat stat in any circumstance
    -Spell Hit & Intellect (Paladin)
    --Nice to have but not something to worry about

    -Weapon Damage, Speed
    --Heroic Strike outweighs Devastate
    ---Less cost per Heroic w/ fast weap as well
    --More consistent, reliable rage gen
    --Tank-oriented weapons are fast

    --If Parries suck, why not use a slower weapon?
    ---If you're an off-tank
    ---If you're having no problems w/ threat
    ---If your stats can compensate for it


    Advice, Suggestions
    -Use trinkets, rings to balance gear

    -490 is not a goal or peak
    --minimum
    --anticipation still good after this

    -Gear normally stacked w/ Avoidance already
    --But know when Avoidance genuinely helps
    ---Prince, Karathress Shaman, Morogrim
    --Don't stack it just for kicks

    -Gems, generally SSOE
    --Can slide by anything w/ this

    -Enchants, generally Stamina
    --Cloak: Kind of a tossup
    --Gloves: 2% threat gives the best overall benefit
    --150 HP to chest gives more hp than 10 stam armor kit even with scaling
    --Executioner (Warrior)/40 Spelldamage(Paladin) for threat, OR Mongoose for avoidance
    --Can enchant for defense if you really need it for 490 (ZA/Badge gear)

    -Consumables
    --Stamina food
    --Fortification Flask
    --(Paladin) Wizard Oil
    --Can use elixirs for situational differences

    -Tanking sets are situational
    --like everything else
    --Formulas that work for DPS roles don't work for tanks
    ---based off bosses, not players

    -Important to know your role
    --Off-tanks generally take less burst
    ---Avoidance can be better for them

    -Upgrades are upgrades
    --stats are all tank?
    --from higher boss?
    ---Don't get caught with gear three tiers behind b/c of something you read
    ---Check gear forums for more info


    References
    Satrina's Evil Empire Guides
    Effective Health Theory
    Wanderlei's On Avoidance
    Life After 490 Defense
    TankSpot Gear Lists & Rankings
    Parry Combat Log Example


    Corrections & Clarifications
    Correction: 5:23 has an editing error; there are 10-20 seconds of repeated audio.

    Clarification: If you Parry an attack, a check is made that determines how much time is left on your next normal swing. If you have more than 60% of the time left before a swing would occur, then a flat 40% reduction will occur to your swing time. If you have between 20% and 60%, a flat 20% reduction will occur to your swing time. If you have less than 20%, no reduction will occur.

    Clarification: Stats for handling damage and stats for Threat are prioritized in order of importance. Use the pre-recording outline to see the recommended order, from top to bottom.

    Clarification: Expertise has a ~3.9 to 1 Expertise conversion. 1 Expertise provides a Dodge and Parry reduction of 0.25%, essentially becoming 0.5% chance to Hit.

    Clarification: Agility is a good stat with genuine benefits; however, it's very uncommon, and thus left out of most discussions. Armor Penetration for tanks is the same.

    Clarification: I am referring to [item]The Night Blade[/item], not [item]Nightblade[/item].

    Clarification: Not holding on to items substantially below your level doesn't always hold true, especially with trinkets and special-use items. For instance, Gnomeregan Auto-Blocker 600 from Sapphiron is still an amazing and unique trinket for certain things, and Styleen's Impeding Scarab can still find uses for passive uncrushable sets.


    Ask Me Anything -- What Are Your Questions?
    Got a question or discussion subject? Post here or send myself or Lore a private message through our forums!

    Last edited by Ciderhelm; 04-15-2008 at 10:14 AM.

  2. #2
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    Nice podcast; very interesting. Very informative, though I disagree with you on several points. The value of block rating and strength, for instance -- while they are not bad stats (that is, they do offer a tangible benefit), they are stats that I would not itemize for normally. Other stats are plain and simply better. Also, on the concept of wearing "out-dated" gear, while I agree in principle, there are items that are simply not replacable, despite other items having generally better stats. As an example, look at three of the four Blackwing Lair trinkets -- [item]Drake Fang Talisman[/item], [item]Styleen's Impeding Scarab[/item], [item]Neltharion's Tear[/item], [item]Rejuvenating Gem[/item]. The latter three are itemized so perfectly, they can last well into 70 end-game... despite being level 60 BWL epics. Another example is [item]Flesh Beast's Metal Greaves[/item] -- for a paladin tank, these boots will not get replaced till you get [item]Boots of Elusion[/item], or until you can get to 102.4% reliably without them, whichever happens first.

    Anyway, the point is, just because an item is "outdated", and there are technically better items for their slots, it doesn't mean that the item doesn't have a use. Don't get rid of a piece of gear because you've gotten an upgrade for the slot unless you are absolutely sure that the upgrade is better in all situations.
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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Norrath View Post
    Nice podcast; very interesting. Very informative, though I disagree with you on several points. The value of block rating and strength, for instance -- while they are not bad stats (that is, they do offer a tangible benefit), they are stats that I would not itemize for normally. Other stats are plain and simply better.
    The value of Block Rating and Strength were purposely at the bottom of the list in their respective categories. The reason they were brought up was to make tanks aware that they are still beneficial stats, but they aren't as beneficial as other stats -- i.e. don't sweat it if you have them, but when prioritizing, they're at the bottom.

    How many WWS parses do you see where the tank doesn't have Battle Shout, even though there were other Warriors in the raid, and even though DPS was threat capped? Enough that it was worth bringing up. I believe another example was Faith in Felsteel and Strength bonuses found on early tanking gear, both of which are reasonable.


    Quote Originally Posted by Norrath View Post
    Also, on the concept of wearing "out-dated" gear, while I agree in principle, there are items that are simply not replacable, despite other items having generally better stats. As an example, look at three of the four Blackwing Lair trinkets -- [item]Drake Fang Talisman[/item], [item]Styleen's Impeding Scarab[/item], [item]Neltharion's Tear[/item], [item]Rejuvenating Gem[/item]. The latter three are itemized so perfectly, they can last well into 70 end-game... despite being level 60 BWL epics. Another example is [item]Flesh Beast's Metal Greaves[/item] -- for a paladin tank, these boots will not get replaced till you get [item]Boots of Elusion[/item], or until you can get to 102.4% reliably without them, whichever happens first.

    Anyway, the point is, just because an item is "outdated", and there are technically better items for their slots, it doesn't mean that the item doesn't have a use. Don't get rid of a piece of gear because you've gotten an upgrade for the slot unless you are absolutely sure that the upgrade is better in all situations.
    This is a good clarification and I'll put this into the original thread as such. This specifically applies to trinkets, though, and only in extreme situations will it apply to non-trinkets. Even with trinkets, it's strange to see people stack pre-raid Stamina trinkets over amazingly well suited tanking trinkets (which is partly a fault of pushing EH as hard as I did).

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ciderhelm View Post
    The value of Block Rating and Strength were purposely at the bottom of the list in their respective categories. The reason they were brought up was to make tanks aware that they are still beneficial stats, but they aren't as beneficial as other stats -- i.e. don't sweat it if you have them, but when prioritizing, they're at the bottom.

    How many WWS parses do you see where the tank doesn't have Battle Shout, even though there were other Warriors in the raid, and even though DPS was threat capped? Enough that it was worth bringing up. I believe another example was Faith in Felsteel and Strength bonuses found on early tanking gear, both of which are reasonable.
    Right, I suppose the benefit of them can get a little, uh, "lost in translation", so to speak.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ciderhelm View Post
    This is a good clarification and I'll put this into the original thread as such. This specifically applies to trinkets, though, and only in extreme situations will it apply to non-trinkets. Even with trinkets, it's strange to see people stack pre-raid Stamina trinkets over amazingly well suited tanking trinkets (which is partly a fault of pushing EH as hard as I did).
    More specifically, it applies to any item which has unique abilities, or unusually high stats in one area. This often applies to trinkets, but it also applies to other items. Idols/relics naturally, as they are basically a limited extra trinket slot for druids and paladins, but also shields ([item]Petrified Lichen Guard[/item], [item]Shield of the Wayward Footman[/item]) -- [item]Nightfall[/item] is another example (and you kept calling it [item]Nightblade[/item] in the podcast, btw ). I can't really think of others at the moment, but I'm pretty certain they are there.
    風林火山陰雷

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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Norrath View Post
    [item]Nightfall[/item] is another example (and you kept calling it [item]Nightblade[/item] in the podcast, btw ). I can't really think of others at the moment, but I'm pretty certain they are there.
    Sir:
    [item]The Night Blade[/item]

    Carry on!

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    >_< Blargh. Blizzard's fault for naming two weapons essentially the same!
    風林火山陰雷

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    sounds interesting, wish i had brought my MP3 cable with me could have listened to this on the bus. Ah well it can wait till later.

    Augh
    Nom Nom NOM =D

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    Just by way of update for Cider- I still can't seem to find the podcast on the Itunes store. I'm wondering if it still needs time to register there? Just letting you know...
    The Raid - A feature length documentary following the lives of a group of virtual raiders.


  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lilie View Post
    Just by way of update for Cider- I still can't seem to find the podcast on the Itunes store. I'm wondering if it still needs time to register there? Just letting you know...
    My stats page is showing 80ish people have subscribed via iTunes. I'm not familiar w/ the interface, so I honestly can't help you, but people are either getting it directly or indirectly at the moment.

    I do know I got a "this could take a few days" warning when I submitted the actual information to iTunes, which was yesterday or the day before.

  10. #10
    To subscribe via iTunes directly, in the meantime:

    Go to Advanced->Subscribe to Podcast...

    In the box that pops up, put this link: Ciderhelm

    Click OK
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  11. #11
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    Is anyone else having a problem with the mp3 link cutting out early? I only receive about the first 75&#37; of the cast. Cider I think is just finished discussing executioner, and Lore speaks up, and the cast stops. I don't think I'm receiving the full file, I'll have to try later to get the rest.

  12. #12
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    Does direct download work, or is that what's giving you the issue?

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    RE: Enchant discussion

    For the cloak enchant, the new 12 Def to Cloak is the one that I've been putting on my cloak.

    1. You near the amount of avoidance you would get from 12 Dodge

    2. The badge / ZA gear (which I have quite a bit of) seems a bit lacking in Defense.

    I also like the +15 Def to chest, but the 150 health is a strong chioce as well.

    Edit: Next time I should listen to the whole podcast before I post. Lore covered it a little later in the podcast.

    Threat Flask: Flask of Blinding Light. I use these on fights like VR.
    Last edited by Honorshammer; 04-14-2008 at 10:14 AM.

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    Excellent podcast!

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    Great listen guys.

    Question.. you seem very solid on the fact that you should be 490 def minimum. Is this mostly due to the "uncrittable" aspect? (IE are you taking minor amounts of resilience into account)

    I ask because I am looking to grab the S4 Chest, for a massive massive Sta + Armor gain (I have the Aldor chest), but I will lose 46 def rating. Couple this with my Executioner enchanted Quickening Blade of the Prince, also looking up upgrade my Felsteel Gloves with the Bonefist badge ones, and S1 shield and shoulders, I will remain uncritable with my 80+ resilience, but I will be down near 450 defence.

    Would you recommend enchanting + def? Or something else?

    Thanks tons, and again great listen.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ciderhelm View Post
    Does direct download work, or is that what's giving you the issue?
    Looks like the direct download works. I'm not sure why the stream kept failing, thanks!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Honorshammer View Post
    RE: Enchant discussion

    For the cloak enchant, the new 12 Def to Cloak is the one that I've been putting on my cloak.

    1. You near the amount of avoidance you would get from 12 Dodge
    I actually wanted to state that as a warrior tank I now use this enchant over dodge as well for the exact reason that Cider stated in the podcast when he was talking about defense rating being superior to dodge. Having the little bit of extra block in case shield block charges are down. The trade off is -.03% avoidance for +.2% block (correct me if my math is wrong). Like Lore said, pretty much splitting hairs, but still I think its worth mentioning.

    Anyway, good stuff in the podcast. Very useful information for new tanks as well as veterans looking for second opinions or to listen to for fun .

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mardran View Post
    I actually wanted to state that as a warrior tank I now use this enchant over dodge as well for the exact reason that Cider stated in the podcast when he was talking about defense rating being superior to dodge. Having the little bit of extra block in case shield block charges are down. The trade off is -.03% avoidance for +.2% block (correct me if my math is wrong). Like Lore said, pretty much splitting hairs, but still I think its worth mentioning.

    Anyway, good stuff in the podcast. Very useful information for new tanks as well as veterans looking for second opinions or to listen to for fun .
    agreed its definatly a very reasonable tradeoff and helps to give you a cloak for all situations (i'm waiting on my MH upgrade to make the switch however), im even using the +15 def on chest rather than +150 hitpoints or +10 stam for the same reason, i would rather have the extra dodge,parry, block etc than the 150 hits points affected by my armor multiplier (hope thats right).
    Nom Nom NOM =D

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    Great podcast & great site, I seem to be spending more time on Tankspot than I do on WoW

    Anyway one question about the Enchant Chest - Exceptional Health (150 health), on wowhead comments section,

    (Enchant Chest - Exceptional Health - Spells - World of Warcraft) it clearly say's

    "Note that this enchant does not contribute to your stamina pool, and is therefore not buffed by Blessing of Kings or Vitality."

    Is this correct & if so, would another enchant be of better use then ?

    Huw

  20. #20
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    jeezus, i just finished listening to this. long one but a good one. Try to grab Kazaganthi or other PvP peepz and do a discussion about PvP sometime. I think it'd be fun. especially if you did the live podcast where people can ask questions.

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