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Thread: Tabula Rasa Made Us Love WoW CMs

  1. #1
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    Tabula Rasa Made Us Love WoW CMs

    TankSpot Podcast #4
    How Tabula Rasa Made Us Appreciate WoW CMs
    Patrick O'Callahan "Ciderhelm", Lore "LOL", and Velhym "Marmot"
    49:45


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    Direct Download For This Podcast

    Podcast Information
    This podcast covers Tabula Rasa, a new MMO, and the issues it had with it's community approach. This will be entertaining listening for Tabula Rasa players or visitors who play multiple MMOs. It will be useful for those looking at the community approaches of World of Warcraft, Tabula Rasa, and other games.

    The Friday podcast is an off-topic discussion. These are unscripted discussions with a general subject, and do not have a transcript or pre-recorded outline available.

    When available, Donors will see both the outlines and podcasts in advance of their post date.


    Did you find this subject utterly boring? Please, suggest topics and discussions, and ask questions for us to include in our upcoming podcasts.

    Last edited by Ciderhelm; 04-13-2008 at 09:09 AM.

  2. #2
    NOTE TO MY FUTURE SELF:

    Do not record podcasts at 2AM.

    Also try not to sound like a robot.
    Last edited by Lore; 04-11-2008 at 09:02 AM.
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  3. #3
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    Enjoyed it. Relaxed and conversational.

  4. #4
    I refer to TR in the past tense purely because I'm not playing it anymore. If you listened all the way through, I actually recommended that people play it if they hadn't. It's a great game up until level 30.

    And yes, my metaphor failed. This was largely because I forgot what I was saying mid-sentence. Whoops :P
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    I don't think we ever really attacked the gameplay of TR itself. That's never been the issue (for me, at least). The issue has been, and what the podcast itself focuses on, are the lackings in community management, organization, and communication. The fact that you are the sole individual I rely on to get my TR news instead of some central location on an official site speaks to that. That being said, I definitely appreciate what you do since I still want TR to do well and I still like reading up on it, I just personally wish they would have done things better in that community regard.

    I've played TR as recently as last week myself. My subscription doesn't end for another several days so I was messing around and it really didn't feel much different (since I was playing when Kael got their massive buffs and Linkers were nerfed).

  6. #6
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    Kudag.

    Regarding Edit 12, I wasn't saying that and I disagree w/ it, but there were a lot of people in-game who were complaining about the awful and completely unnecessary moderation system PTR had in place. How many times were posts and threads w/ links simply not published because they never got around to moderating them? (I know it happened at least once just with me, and you had mentioned it was an issue)

    Regarding Edit 6, Guardian Alpha Wolf was and probably still is terrible. I just didn't want to piggyback on Lore's example to say it.

    Regarding Edit 5, the Blizzard community team does things that are slightly more important than being in game babying people through player events and kicking it up in chat. Like getting fairly accurate feedback from players to help create patches that don't suck. The issue is not that the Devs are actively engaged with the community, it's that their entire strategy reminds me of a kid struggling to be popular in school.

    Regarding Edit 4, the WoW forums may not be the best place in the world, but they get out enormous amounts of accurate information, player-to-player assistance, feedback, and the ability to grow serious niche fansites. I don't know what your stance on this is, but I hope you're not suggesting PTR is a better forum than central NCSoft forums would be, because PTR is substantially worse than even the official WoW forums since it doesn't seriously provide for the extraneous functions.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by KudagAxehand View Post
    I think the Queue is actually automated. I specifically requested a moderator to push your threat guide through, which they complied with in a very rapid fashion. The moderation Queue is to stop spambots, not legitimate posts, and once you have posted a certain number of posts you are no longer subject to being put in the queue.
    Again, they are running the newest version of vBulletin. There is literally zero reason for them to put a moderation queue on their posts. If they are doing it to spambots, they are morons who have no idea how their software works.

    The only reason you put things in a moderation queue is to prevent people from registering for the purpose of linking to other sites. They can say it's for spam protection, but anyone who knows the software is going to call them idiots.

    The reason I didn't chime in to make a counter-point on that is that, yes, there is a rivalry between the sites. Why were we the first and longest running fansite to post news from ALL of the major sources? Not sure how things are run now, but when I was looking at PTR, TTH, and IGN, they would never repost a link to another fansite on their news unless it was in the feedback friday.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by KudagAxehand View Post
    Or Laziness.

    In the case of TTH and IGN, they're commercial sites, do you really expect them to promote what they no doubt view as potential competition? I never visit either site myself, but do they ever link Tankspot?
    This is exactly why TR's community system is a failure.

    The community does not nurture itself. At best, it ignores it. In TTH and IGN's case, it appears to suppress it. Without a place for the community to grow from, it does not grow at all.
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by KudagAxehand View Post
    How's that saying go? Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity?
    Arguing they're stupid doesn't put them in a better light than arguing they're malicious, given that they're trying to be the official forums. Which was the point of what was being said, at least on my end.

    Quote Originally Posted by KudagAxehand View Post
    In the case of TTH and IGN, they're commercial sites, do you really expect them to promote what they no doubt view as potential competition?
    Again, isn't that exactly the problem with having multiple sites attempting to be official forums? Isn't this what was being said?

    Quote Originally Posted by KudagAxehand View Post
    Not a great example of promoting us, but that's a poster we never would have had otherwise.
    But TabulaSpot was never built as a community site, it was built as a theory site for a game which (unfortunately) required no thought whatsoever.

    Quote Originally Posted by KudagAxehand View Post
    The same thread, Vortech of PTR signed up and posted, which is more than can be said for the majority of our visitors.
    Read above. We weren't a community site.

    Quote Originally Posted by KudagAxehand View Post
    Planet TR's news page takes a backseat to their forums, and not vice-versa. If it's in their forums then it pretty much has been posted as "news", IMO.
    And this is really the issue I have.

    You're defending a bad site by suggesting it could be worse, and suggesting that it at least offered something. That was never the argument being made. The argument being made was that the fractured set of communities made game deployment worse than it would have been with a central forum and fansites built outward from there.

    I agree with you that it's not as bad as what Lore and Velhym were saying, sure. But I've already said that in this thread twice. If we want to take the next step and ask whether PTR is a good site or not, it's awful. You may disagree. TR's development team has gone by the book in illustrating how not to handle a community.

  10. #10
    I will agree that I could easily take things a lot more seriously than they need to me. I find the subtle nuances and dynamics of community management fascinating, so it's quite possible that I am simply judging something that is merely suboptimal to be worse than it actually is in practice.
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by KudagAxehand View Post
    Only because nobody joined our forums to make it one. What community exactly am I managing here =oP
    Is TankSpot not a Warrior Community, a Tanking Community site? How was TabulaSpot to be any different? A niche community is still a community.
    It was clearly stated that we were talking about sites trying to emulate official forums and take that role. You're correct on the semantics, but only if you pull this completely out of context.

    Quote Originally Posted by KudagAxehand View Post
    Lets see what was said:
    -Bitter Rivalry between fansites
    -Planet TR would frequently ban users linking to other fansites
    -What little community there was became hostile towards the other segments of the community
    -fansites in competition, very vicious towards eachother

    To the best of my knowledge, the above is UTTERLY FALSE. I challenge anyone to show evidence of it. Especially the comment about PTR banning players for linking to other fansites. Looking at you here, Lore...
    You say this, and I understand this, but you're directing an argument at me that is nothing to do with what I said. My argument has been separate of this, but you've been countering statements I've made by responding to statements others have.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by KudagAxehand View Post
    I responded to your comments regarding this, because YOU responded to MINE (Edit 2 in my first post). If you did not wish to engage in discussion about the statements in question...why do so? Further, if you disagreed with Lore's assessment of the community and the actions of the sites in question, why not say so?
    Because I didn't know if it was correct or incorrect, and still don't. Velhym played longer than any of us.

    You may not have read clearly what I had said in response to yours. Please look at it again:
    Regarding Edit 12, I wasn't saying that and I disagree w/ it, but there were a lot of people in-game who were complaining about the awful and completely unnecessary moderation system PTR had in place. How many times were posts and threads w/ links simply not published because they never got around to moderating them? (I know it happened at least once just with me, and you had mentioned it was an issue)
    Then:

    I agree with you that it's not as bad as what Lore and Velhym were saying, sure. But I've already said that in this thread twice. If we want to take the next step and ask whether PTR is a good site or not, it's awful. You may disagree. TR's development team has gone by the book in illustrating how not to handle a community.
    You said you took issue with separate points, and I agreed with you, but you continued to argue several things that were unrelated to your point, such as the thread moderation. That's what I disagreed with, and still do.

    When I read your responses, you're quick to get in and defend various aspects of PTR, and that's fine. It's just that half of what you're arguing has less to do with the podcast than with people who don't like that single website of four major ones (PTR, IGN, TTH, Gangrel).

    If we've all trashed PTR, it's because we thought that it -- like the rest of the sites -- were bad. That's why we didn't post there. But we're still three separate people who made separate points, and to be clear again, I agree that the statement on the issue you brought up was incorrect regarding active banning.

  13. #13
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    I just want to chime in here since I played TR for about 2 weeks before leaving. I agree with the overall tone of the pod cast and assessment of TR's community (or lack thereof).

    It was fun to just run around and shoot stuff for a while, but that soon grew old. While searching for intelligent ways to spend my talent points and clone credits, I quickly became frustrated. I know and trust Cider & Co. so I automatically came to TabulaSpot first (they were the ones that introduced me to the game anyway), but the theorycraft presented was too much for me at the time. I browsed some of the other forum sites (I don't even remember which ones how) and found small tidbits of information here and there, but none of the sites earned my trust or love.

    While playing, I never found a solid goal to work towards. Leveling is the journey (and should be enjoyed), but there should be a reason to make that journey. As far as I could tell, a reason did not exist. Crafting was a joke, there was no end-game instances, and I am not that big into PvP. Hell, I never even managed to find an instance group. Was I even playing an MMO?

    It's not all bad though. The game introduces some interesting concepts and makes steps in the right direction. Control points and the hybrid fps/rpg control style both piqued my interest. If the developers stepped in right now, reworked the community and added visible, interesting, and desirable goals to the game, then it could still be saved. I will continue to check in on it because I know much can change in one month, 6 months or a year, but I am not holding my breath.
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  14. #14
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    Sooo... good call on me not buying TR? ;x

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