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Thread: Progression... and leaving sub-par players behind

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talani View Post
    I highly doubt that top end guilds would take to many undergeared or players who couldn't do their job to new end game content so I have to speak for when the casual players like me get there.
    But that's not accurate. The first 25-man fight that genuinely requires coordination from everyone is Gorefiend, followed by Mother. In both cases, most top-tier guilds can wipe and wipe and wipe even on otherwise good nights.

    The first requirement of top guilds is that a player has to meet their raiding hours. For guilds, this will be between 20-36 hours. There are not a lot of players who can do this, and guilds will always recruit a bad player of a needed class over a good player of a needed class that can't make the schedule.

    Long after Illidan dying, we had a Warlock who still pulled aggro every few pulls. He'd wipe us every step of the way, including particularly brutal wipes on Gurtogg, a fight that should be easy. These kinds of players exist at every level of content in every size of raid.

    Bad players with good schedules are still part of raiding. Bad players still wipe raids at roughly the same pace as they did at any other time, assuming you're on new content which requires a brain. Top guilds simply have more time to put up with bad players.

    I also cleared Karazhan with bad players when we were undergeared for it back in late January last year. You can muck your way through anything if you wipe enough.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ciderhelm View Post
    The first requirement of top guilds is that a player has to meet their raiding hours. For guilds, this will be between 20-36 hours. There are not a lot of players who can do this, and guilds will always recruit a bad player of a needed class over a good player of a needed class that can't make the schedule.
    *shudder*

    God, I am glad I belong to a casual raiding guild. Sure, we're still in early MH/BT in progression now, but our raiding hours amount to 12 hours a week. I cannot imagine spending twice to three times that much time raiding without both losing my job and going bat-shit insane.

    I'll give up that amount of progression for a less stressful schedule any day.

  3. #43
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    That's an interesting point. Raiding only the 9-10 hours a week my guild does, everything has to be that much closer to perfect. Screw ups on 'farm' bosses are less tolerable and scheduling has to be more precise. We downed Leo for the first time last night. We had 3 people in there who had never seen the fight including the paladin who has been my pet project because her performance was beyond terrible. We had spent several nights on Leo, never getting lower than 35%. Crushed him on the 3rd pull last night and never spent that agonizing time trying to figure out how to survive 15%-0%

    Point is, guilds that raid many more hours can afford to brute force it. We did it without our best lineup. Through raiding 20-30 hours per week comes repetition and builds 'skill'. The 10 hour a week or less guilds neither have the margin for error nor the amount of 'training' of thier more hardcore counterparts.

    Its right to demand and expect to roll over content and not slack ass on farm bosses but to sit there after a single wipe on a boss you've one shot 3 weeks in a row and get all emo about it isn't going to help. No one is perfect and mistakes happen. There is this perception that the elite guilds step into raids and play perfectly and when your casual guild wipes on Lurker, "OMG, we suck" but it not accurate. That's not to say any player in one kind of guild is equal to players in another type of guild but both of those players are human and put thier pants on one leg at a time.
    your hat may be nice, but I have the little white tank top that says Legendary right across my boobs. I win. (or more correctly, H wins)

  4. #44
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    ok I guess this is my fault for not wording my argument correctly.

    Take 2

    Forget top guilds, gear, time alotted and instance diffacultie

    what I am saying in a group of casual raiders it appers to me that in a 40 man raid if one person is not pulling their weight it is less harmful to the raid then say in a 10 man. To me It seems like BC raiding is harder (not saying that MC ,BWL or naxx where not hard..because I spent whipe after whipe clearing them to) only because people have focus more on how they play their chars. This is the same reason most of you don't do pugs. There is less wiggle room in lower raid caps.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talani View Post
    ok I guess this is my fault for not wording my argument correctly.

    Take 2

    Forget top guilds, gear, time alotted and instance diffacultie

    what I am saying in a group of casual raiders it appers to me that in a 40 man raid if one person is not pulling their weight it is less harmful to the raid then say in a 10 man. To me It seems like BC raiding is harder (not saying that MC ,BWL or naxx where not hard..because I spent whipe after whipe clearing them to) only because people have focus more on how they play their chars. This is the same reason most of you don't do pugs. There is less wiggle room in lower raid caps.
    I'll agree and disagree with you on this one.

    Agreed: 1 death in a 40 man, 1 person not pulling their weight... meh whatever. I death in a 10 man, 1 person not pulling their weight... big deal.

    Disagree: BC raiding isn't necessarily harder, it's probably easier in a lot of ways. (and from what I'm told nothing still compares to naxx) The difference is the BC forces your weakest player to be a lot better than he used to have to be. There is a higher stand for mediocrity, but that doesn't mean for strong players that the game is any more difficult than it ever was.

    I'd sum it up as the game is harder for weak players and easier for strong players. So some raids are going to find this game a lot easier than before where as others will find it a lot harder. BC is about Depth not your Starting 5.

  6. #46
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    ..so..you..agree with me? thats what im saying no matter where you go if you have strong players of course things will easyer. but say you have 9 strong ones..and 1 weak one. The raid IS going to suffer...the strong players will no doubt notice it and do something but say you have 39 strong players..and one slacker.. its not going to be as easy to notice.

    all I am saying BC aids are harder because in SSC TK and im sure BT if you do not know how you play your class effectivly the raid will suffer. sometimes it is just a learning curve...we all are newbies at one point but we all know people that just suck. Would you take that person to BT?

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talani View Post
    all I am saying BC aids are harder because in SSC TK and im sure BT if you do not know how you play your class effectivly the raid will suffer.
    This is where the line is crossed.

    Let me make this clear. 25-man raids are not harder than 40-man raids. If you didn't advance through each of the 40-man raids, wouldn't it be reasonable to not comment on them?

    You can make your original point -- that people need to carry their weight in raids -- without saying a word about 40-man raids.

  8. #48
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    Who said I never went through 40 man raids? If I had not I would agree with you that yes I shouldn't be able to comment on them.

    I gave a reason why I think the way I do but just saying "25-man raids are not harder than 40-man raids" does not give me any insight on why you think that.

    You said also in a earlyer post

    "Long after Illidan dying, we had a Warlock who still pulled aggro every few pulls. He'd wipe us every step of the way, including particularly brutal wipes on Gurtogg, a fight that should be easy. These kinds of players exist at every level of content in every size of raid."

    I agree with you to that bad players then are still bad players now.
    but if you have less people means you have less of a chance to recover from it right?

    I am not saying that 40 man raids where a cake walk and only noobs did them blah blah. I know they where hard..sometimes crazy hard. I recall the spider wing like most people would a horrable dream about prison rape. and i screamed like a little girl whenever we did twin emps.
    I have alot of respect for 40 mans and the people who mastered them.

    again I should have worded that last post better and not have stated it as fact but merly my veiw. In my opioin 25 man raids have givin more raiding guilds trouble then 40 man raids. I am not trying to call you out or anything and I really want to know why you think I am wrong ^^ but do not stress over it though because its really not important what I think, and even though right now I am interested..the secound I get off work thoughts of 40 manning anything will be replaced with getting my neece a birthday gift and pints of Guinness.
    Last edited by Talani; 02-08-2008 at 02:00 PM. Reason: spelling error

  9. #49
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    People don't need to carry their weight. All they need to do is be capable of understanding simple instructions -- and if it deviates from "do what you usually do", getting the point after it's been spammed in their faces a couple times at once is good enough. ("You're exploding, move to the wall!!", "STOP DPS!", etc.)

    This is of course assuming you don't care about your progress pace and that you have all the time in the world to bash your head at a boss. Eventually people will grasp the concept and you'll get the loot.

    I've only been through MC and BWL, but it was beaten pretty soundly into my head all the same. "Stand where you're told to stand, move when you're told to move, and otherwise do what you're always doing, and listen to any extra instructions" pretty much sums it up.

    This goes for all raids, no matter the size. If you can listen to the tactics, you're a shoe-in.

    Of course, people who raid bleeding edge content do not have the luxury of getting tactics handed to them -- they are the ones making the tactics. If you're one of those, my hat's off to you. But the vast majority of raiders aren't, and even within bleeding edge groups, you can get by with having instruction-bots.
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  10. #50
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    So your saying its ok to slack off during a raid so long as your standing in the right spot? I think that would only hinder your raid. True you can't beat a boss without knowing what to do and when to do it, but its not ganna die unless tanks tank..tanks get healed..and dps burns the jerk down.

    Order taking in a must but if your not putting in work then what good are you to the raid? if your not pulling your weight why do you deserve epics? thats just how I see it.

  11. #51
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    That's not what I'm saying.

    I said they had to be capable of following simple instructions. That obviously includes DPSing, healing and tanking.
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  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talani View Post
    So your saying its ok to slack off during a raid so long as your standing in the right spot? I think that would only hinder your raid. True you can't beat a boss without knowing what to do and when to do it, but its not ganna die unless tanks tank..tanks get healed..and dps burns the jerk down.

    Order taking in a must but if your not putting in work then what good are you to the raid? if your not pulling your weight why do you deserve epics? thats just how I see it.
    Why aren't 25-mans harder than 40-mans?

    There are four encounters you could not limp through; C'thun, Thaddius, Four Horsemen, and Gothik. You couldn't outgear those at the time -- everyone in your raid had to have a clue what they were doing.

    The reason people give a bad rap to Molten Core and Blackwing is because if and when they did it, they entered them with gear well beyond the encounter difficulty. Molten Core with UBRS loot was much different than Molten Core with Dire Maul and battlegrounds loot... just like Karazhan with Arena gear is much different than Karazhan without it.

    You can't write off all encounters as equal except for numbers. Encounters actually have to be programmed to be more difficult, and in TBC, they weren't. Gorefiend is the only do-or-die encounter where people have to know what they're doing, and even there, you can keep wiping 'til you get the right combination of players.


    The reason I quoted your post was this -- you suggest that players have to really excel at their class, moreso now than in 40-mans.

    Consider this:
    Naxxramas requires raiders in T3 gear to complete.
    Black Temple requires raiders in T3 gear to complete.

    If you followed the Chinese guild that cleared all TBC endgame in T3 gear, you'll know I'm not kidding.


    You had to meet certain DPS minimums in pre-TBC. You rarely do in TBC, and when you do, they are minimal. You had to meet certain tanking requirements in pre-TBC, which virtually required Effective Health stacking in deeper content. In TBC, you can stack whatever you want and be successful. Really. Knowing your class has almost nothing to do with it, which is kind of sad.

    Again, I'll reiterate. Content is time spent. It's not player skill. It used to require some player skill, and it occasionally does still. But 25-mans are not harder than 40-mans were. Period.

    //Edit: As a point of reference, skill =/= basic game mechanics. The reason some guilds take more hours to complete content is because they don't figure out very basic concepts like how to stop DPS or alternate tanks.
    Last edited by Ciderhelm; 02-08-2008 at 04:36 PM.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ciderhelm View Post
    Why aren't 25-mans harder than 40-mans?

    There are four encounters you could not limp through; C'thun, Thaddius, Four Horsemen, and Gothik. You couldn't outgear those at the time -- everyone in your raid had to have a clue what they were doing.

    The reason people give a bad rap to Molten Core and Blackwing is because if and when they did it, they entered them with gear well beyond the encounter difficulty. Molten Core with UBRS loot was much different than Molten Core with Dire Maul and battlegrounds loot... just like Karazhan with Arena gear is much different than Karazhan without it.


    You can't write off all encounters as equal except for numbers. Encounters actually have to be programmed to be more difficult, and in TBC, they weren't. Gorefiend is the only do-or-die encounter where people have to know what they're doing, and even there, you can keep wiping 'til you get the right combination of players.


    The reason I quoted your post was this -- you suggest that players have to really excel at their class, moreso now than in 40-mans.

    Consider this:
    Naxxramas requires raiders in T3 gear to complete.
    Black Temple requires raiders in T3 gear to complete.

    If you followed the Chinese guild that cleared all TBC endgame in T3 gear, you'll know I'm not kidding.


    You had to meet certain DPS minimums in pre-TBC. You rarely do in TBC, and when you do, they are minimal. You had to meet certain tanking requirements in pre-TBC, which virtually required Effective Health stacking in deeper content. In TBC, you can stack whatever you want and be successful. Really. Knowing your class has almost nothing to do with it, which is kind of sad.

    Again, I'll reiterate. Content is time spent. It's not player skill. It used to require some player skill, and it occasionally does still. But 25-mans are not harder than 40-mans were. Period.
    ^

    .....They made the game easier, and continue to make it easier. There is absolutely no way that content now is harder than content then.


    The key to this whole conversation was said above perfectly in cider's last post, and was what I was getting at but never quite stated it clearly enough. The bit about mmc being different with ubrs gear than with battlegroun and dire maul gear, Dire Maul was implemented into the game because mc was too hard with to progress through for the non cutting edge raiders, the game has continually been dumbed down as we progress as has been posted about here a number of times.

    There is mabe 2-3 truly difficult encounters in tbc, the rest are so scripted and gimmicky that 1 kill generally means farmable cotent, this was not the case pre-bc in new content, and was not the case in other mmo's.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ciderhelm View Post
    Consider this:
    Naxxramas requires raiders in T3 gear to complete.
    Black Temple requires raiders in T3 gear to complete.

    If you followed the Chinese guild that cleared all TBC endgame in T3 gear, you'll know I'm not kidding.
    That's not entirely fair, and you know it. There are maybe a dozen T3 pieces throughout the raid in that picture.

    And nothing says they actually wore that gear on the kill.
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  15. #55
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    There is a newer guild on our server composed of people who started new toons to go through the content as quickly as they could manage it. The started Raiding mid December. They are currently halfway through BT/Hyjal. Looking at that, and the gear they are currently wearing, I would say the statement that BT requires raiders in T3 gear to complete isn't all that off base.

    If your interested, here's the armory link to the guild.
    The World of Warcraft Armory

  16. #56
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    They are wearing better quality loot than T3, so I really don't see your point.
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  17. #57
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    You have put an alarming amount of thought into this Mr. Helm well played. I can see why others think so highly of you.

    I understand what your saying... I think you can write off me paying attention to what chinse guilds are doing. Infact I never really payed attention to what top guilds on my server are doing.

    In my WoW Career I have had more issue with 25 man raids then 40 man ones. so yeah I really can only speak for myself and to be honest didn't put much thought into my agrument.

    I will accept that your rightand that 40 mans are harder then newer 25 man raid. But I think you should put less effort in wow and more into finding a cure for cancer or solving crimes. I hope I didn't ruffle your feathers to bad.

    Personally ...do you still play wow? if so why do you put so much effort into being skilled if you don't need any skill..just alot of free time?

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Norrath View Post
    That's not entirely fair, and you know it. There are maybe a dozen T3 pieces throughout the raid in that picture.

    And nothing says they actually wore that gear on the kill.
    It is, however, fair to say that it was mostly Karazhan gear, which is by and large the same item level as deep T3 gear. They completed the content so quickly that it wouldn't have been significantly beyond that for anyone but their main tank.

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    Amending that statement:
    Not same Item Levels, but mostly the same quality.

  20. #60
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    I don't think it's quite so much it being okay to slack off during a raid - ideally, no one wants others to do that. Hell, even the people that do slack off want the others to not slack off, as it means less work for them. Rather, I think what the issue is, is that people can slack off and have the raid still progress, albeit a bit more slowly.

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