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Thread: Progression... and leaving sub-par players behind

  1. #1
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    Progression... and leaving sub-par players behind

    So... I always swore I wouldn't become condescending... yet I kinda feel i'm on the verge of becoming that way. Is it so bad that you get used to playing with epic'd out players and are impatient if you have to play with someone even in all blues? Granted there are some skilled players but still... I get frustrated now that the cap to do heroics has been lowered, you have all these ppl just hitting 70 and excited to run heroics that have never been in some instances. Not to mention I worked my ass off to get revered with all the factions and ya know what? I bitched about it then but even when i was revered i wasn't ready for some heroics.

    I get this old guildie... from my old nub guild wanting to do slabs... saying he could also use a heroic slabs run. I ask, "what cc you got?". He says, "What's cc?". Yeah I quickly got out of that run. He kept asking me questions... he's like how bout this heroic or that. I tried to work around it but eventually I said, "You don't know what cc means... that's kinda ridiculous." And he's like, "Well i don't know that lingo, blah blah blah." Sigh.... /cry. I hurt for some people knowing that at one point that was me.

    Now how that relates to my guild... my guild is in a weird spot, with all our best players on we one shot gruul's and have cleared SSC trash to lurker easily after a Gruul's run. The next week some other dps is filling in some last slots and one night last week we couldn't get Gruul. We have some people that have gotten in that have hit 70 in the last few weeks. This one particular healer has been working to get better gear and she has like 1300 bonus healing... some would say okay, let her heal kara on farm. Last night, she did 11% of the healing. I've been told by other healers that they watch her, on some fights they're halfway thru mana and she's full. Mind you these other healers have like 18-1900 bonus healing. It pisses me off that particularly this girl seems to whine a lot... yeah she's constantly trying to get stuff done but WTF is she doing during those fights that she's getting 11% of the healing?? And as a tank, I don't want her healing me. Our Gm doesn't want her healing him.

    So... people talk about her instead of talking to her about it. But they're like, ya know we aren't some hardcore raiding guild... the GM made this guild so it wouldn't be like his old guild where ppl constantly got yelled at, etc. And yeah I don't want that... but I would like people to be honest too. My friend that got me in this guild... he's like, we can't totally forget kara, we don't have 25 consistent players for raids. But you're having officers tired of kara... that don't feel like gearing certain ppl. Don't feel some deserve it or are going to be skilled anyway with epic gear. I would say only a few spots need to be filled... and it just needs to be organized better who is going to fill them and only those people go on our best kara runs. The rest can get their own together or something.... I dunno.

    Can anyone relate to all this?

  2. #2
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    This is a good post. I may move it to the Guild Relations forums a little later this evening, though, since it falls solidly into those subjects.

  3. #3
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    This is very, very common and the transition into 25 mans has developed like this for many people. Excepting the few who are in hardcore cutting edge guilds way passed this, everyone knows these players. I am in the midst of a reclimation project at the moment. I have a paladin with 1800+heal and she gets 6-7% of the healing for a 25 man raid. In contrast, I usually lead the meter on my druid at around 14-16% of the total healing with 7 healers. Its disgusting but at least we have finally confronted the problem and warned her.

    You are constantly evolving as a player and the move from Kara to 25 man raiding forces you to ramp it up or fall behind. Many of us get caught up in situations playing with people who fall on both sides and it forces everyone to make alot of tough decisions.
    your hat may be nice, but I have the little white tank top that says Legendary right across my boobs. I win. (or more correctly, H wins)

  4. #4
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    It is a bad spot to be in, but the bottom line is, if you want to progress as a family/casual guild, people will be left behind and you can not accomodate everyone.

    Generally with a family/casual type guild like this you need a total incentive based loot system, that is non discriminating against anything. Doing this will usually stimulate growth in more casual players and a desire to attend more in your better players.

    If you are using a loot council, suicide kings and in some cases a zero sum system you are most likely not providing enough incentive to raid, using a per boss kill/on time open end bid system generally works well in this type of guild. It let's a player place his own value on his upgrades,a s well as rewarding people for being online to raid, wether they are actually in the raid or sitting on the sideline for the night.

    The last thing would be in regards to your guild leader to not "yell" at people, in my experience a good 'yelliong' is very productive when done in moderation, and when well deserved, however the guild will need an outlet to vent if they think the scolding was unfair, the best way to go about this is to have a raid leader who, as far as the members are concerned has total control of raids. Said raid leader can do all the necesary scolding, and the memebrs still have their nice friendly guild leader/officers to speak with if they have a problem with it, or anything in general.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ciderhelm View Post
    This is a good post. I may move it to the Guild Relations forums a little later this evening, though, since it falls solidly into those subjects.
    Yeah, I probalby should've put there to begin with

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Centx View Post
    It is a bad spot to be in, but the bottom line is, if you want to progress as a family/casual guild, people will be left behind and you can not accomodate everyone.

    Generally with a family/casual type guild like this you need a total incentive based loot system, that is non discriminating against anything. Doing this will usually stimulate growth in more casual players and a desire to attend more in your better players.

    If you are using a loot council, suicide kings and in some cases a zero sum system you are most likely not providing enough incentive to raid, using a per boss kill/on time open end bid system generally works well in this type of guild. It let's a player place his own value on his upgrades,a s well as rewarding people for being online to raid, wether they are actually in the raid or sitting on the sideline for the night.

    The last thing would be in regards to your guild leader to not "yell" at people, in my experience a good 'yelliong' is very productive when done in moderation, and when well deserved, however the guild will need an outlet to vent if they think the scolding was unfair, the best way to go about this is to have a raid leader who, as far as the members are concerned has total control of raids. Said raid leader can do all the necesary scolding, and the memebrs still have their nice friendly guild leader/officers to speak with if they have a problem with it, or anything in general.



    Very, very helpful... I will copy/paste this to my GM

  7. #7
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    Let me again state that the "honor keyed" player sux theory is FALSE.

    Easiest key to get is KoT yet it's the hardest heroic to do.

    People sucking has nothing to do with their rep.

    Gear often has nothing to with people sucking either but yes it can make a difference.

    So get off your "honor keyed" high horses and just quit pugging heroics if it's that bad.

  8. #8
    I am sure at some point everyone can relate to this, its just that at some point your margins for dead weight become smaller and smaller. The 40 man days are dead, filler starts to hurt more and more the tighter the encounters become.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Centx View Post
    Generally with a family/casual type guild like this you need a total incentive based loot system, that is non discriminating against anything. Doing this will usually stimulate growth in more casual players and a desire to attend more in your better players.

    If you are using a loot council, suicide kings and in some cases a zero sum system you are most likely not providing enough incentive to raid, using a per boss kill/on time open end bid system generally works well in this type of guild.
    I'd say this depends on your raiders, and your goals, though I certainly agree with your premise. We're a casual-raiding guild, which means we raid three nights a week for three hours a night. We almost never go over that amount of time commitment. So there isn't a lot of "farm" time in our schedule if we want to keep progressing.

    One of the things I'm constantly battling is getting people to give up the idea that they "need" that one particular item before they can move on. I'm always quoting Ciderhelm's "Raid Pacing" guide, and some comments Joanadark has made here about gearing. So, frankly, it was more important for us to separate raiding and loot than to incentivize raiding with the latter.

    Which is not to say that people don't need incentives. But we've made raiding itself the incentive (you show up X% of our raid days, you get dibs on our raid slots) rather than try to motivate people with the possibility of loot. So our loot system is SK - we pretty much just use it to decide whose "turn" it is to receive loot - and our incentive system is our Raider rank.

    I think Centx's post holds true for a number of guilds, and it's definitely the standard way to do things. But do think about what sorts of problems you struggle with as a guild and whether making a change like that will exacerbate or alleviate that problem.

    DKP would not have worked for us because, with our particular raiders, it would have increased the feeling that people have a "right" to loot (they can "buy" it with their DKP) and thus increased the already strong resistance we face to dropping old content.

  10. #10
    My guild is in the same spot as you are. We are just entering SSC now - I hope to see Lurker and Hydross down on our next raid.

    We are a very casual guild. We have 1 25 man raid a week, while in the mean time we run 2 Karas and are struggling to get 2 ZAs running (getting 3 well geared healers for more than 1 ZA run a week seems to be a challenge).

    All our raids are filled through our web site as a general "first come first serve" sign up. This has worked for us for the most part as our casual attitude means that rl has full priority. This also means that often our raid roster varies quite a bit from one week to another - though there is always a core group of ~15 folks (mostly officers, tanks/healers) that come every week.

    Our loot system is what we call "friendly and selfless". All loot is rolled on for primary spec (tanks get priority on some items - but this is pretty loose), the winner of the roll can use the item or pass it to someone else of their choosing that needs the item for their primary spec. We don't want to implement a dkp system, but suicide kings has come up a few times and we know we want to keep folks motivated to coming to raids.

    Our system has worked for us up until now. But as we move into SSC and are coming up against enrage timers (Hydross is the first one I am worried about) and gear becomes more of an issue, we will have to be both more selective with the gear requirements for the raids and sooner or later we will just come up against a wall where our average raider just doesn't cut it for bosses as loot is spread out to many people.
    Last edited by Nuberino; 02-06-2008 at 09:47 AM.
    The beast is getting hungrier.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leytur View Post
    Let me again state that the "honor keyed" player sux theory is FALSE.

    Easiest key to get is KoT yet it's the hardest heroic to do.

    People sucking has nothing to do with their rep.

    Gear often has nothing to with people sucking either but yes it can make a difference.

    So get off your "honor keyed" high horses and just quit pugging heroics if it's that bad.
    I don't pug heroics... and that is why. Thankfully i don't really have to but because of said healer I mentioned and the fact that our guild has grown really fast... i have to pick and choose who I talk to in my guild so I get the best players on a heroic run.

    You can't deny that yeah skill can get you thru a lot... but trying to run a heroic when you know your gear isn't up to par isn't fair to anyone. There are some ppl that can get away with it... but a majority of ppl can't. I would only say that people that already have a 70 and have done those heroics don't not fall into the "honor keyed ppl suck" theory.

    I'm not on a freaking high horse.... I just expect other people to do the same work and get the same experience like I and many others had to do to be prepared for heroics. Playing on an alt that is honor keyed is NOT like someone playing on their main that is honor keyed - again exceptions to some skilled players.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leytur View Post
    Let me again state that the "honor keyed" player sux theory is FALSE.

    Easiest key to get is KoT yet it's the hardest heroic to do.

    People sucking has nothing to do with their rep.

    Gear often has nothing to with people sucking either but yes it can make a difference.

    So get off your "honor keyed" high horses and just quit pugging heroics if it's that bad.

    It opened the door for alot of inexperienced players who have not seen the instances very many times to join the 'LFG' crowd. It also opened the door for very good players on thier alts or with some facet of not liking a certain instance and not wanting to go to still be able to get into heroics now. Its good and bad. In general, I hate PuGs but I play on a backwater cesspool of a server and playing a tank and a healer as my "mains" I don't have to go out of guild. I am running with a known quantity.

    Bad players are bad players whether they are 'Friendly' or 'Exalted' with Lower City. That said, the change did open it up for less experienced players to get into heroics.
    your hat may be nice, but I have the little white tank top that says Legendary right across my boobs. I win. (or more correctly, H wins)

  13. #13
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    Where's Cider's guide on progression that someone mentioned?

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anaea View Post
    I'd say this depends on your raiders, and your goals, though I certainly agree with your premise. We're a casual-raiding guild, which means we raid three nights a week for three hours a night. We almost never go over that amount of time commitment. So there isn't a lot of "farm" time in our schedule if we want to keep progressing.

    One of the things I'm constantly battling is getting people to give up the idea that they "need" that one particular item before they can move on. I'm always quoting Ciderhelm's "Raid Pacing" guide, and some comments Joanadark has made here about gearing. So, frankly, it was more important for us to separate raiding and loot than to incentivize raiding with the latter.

    Which is not to say that people don't need incentives. But we've made raiding itself the incentive (you show up X% of our raid days, you get dibs on our raid slots) rather than try to motivate people with the possibility of loot. So our loot system is SK - we pretty much just use it to decide whose "turn" it is to receive loot - and our incentive system is our Raider rank.

    I think Centx's post holds true for a number of guilds, and it's definitely the standard way to do things. But do think about what sorts of problems you struggle with as a guild and whether making a change like that will exacerbate or alleviate that problem.

    DKP would not have worked for us because, with our particular raiders, it would have increased the feeling that people have a "right" to loot (they can "buy" it with their DKP) and thus increased the already strong resistance we face to dropping old content.

    This is true, I think my post may have been a bit generalized. however, you are already in the content they are trying to start, which is where the major difference lies.

    I was the mt/raid leader, and an officer (guild leader in all but name, as i ran all administration aspects of the guild) in a T5 raiding guild and we saw alot of the same problems during our initial push into ssc/tk, and it helped speed us through vashj and onto kael attempts before the admin stress, and a few people quitting the game finally lead to me moving on to a slightly further progressed guild on another server.

    I also had similar situations running guilds in EQ, incentive based loot sytems jsut work better for the Majority of guilds, because it does exactly what is syas it does, gives incentive to show up, which is always the problem when transitioning to new content. I think this is even more true in a game like wow because the player base as a whole is so much bigger, and generally speaking, much more casual.

    As a side not, I started writing a guide about this sort of thing for this site awhile ago, but gave it up when the forums were first changed around, making guild relations non-existant. If there is still an interest i could possibly find the time to finish it up.

  15. #15
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    I didn't read through them to find it exactly lune, buit its in one of these threads, they also ahve some sueful tidbits that should pertain to your problem.

    Admin vs Leadership

    Lot discussion

    motivational tools

  16. #16
    Time Management for Raiding Guilds

    And I agreed, Centx, I think for the majority of raiding guilds and the majority of raiders the loot is the incentive system. We're an odd collection of mostly working professionals who already have hangups about putting so much "work" into a game, and we have a limited raid schedule -- so DKP would have been a poor fit, and raiders who need DKP would be a poor fit with us anyway.

    For what it's worth, this is the system we've run with since downing Gruul for the first time. Incentive is the raider rank (i.e. raid slot priority) and SK does the loot. But it's definitely dependent on who your raiders are, and wouldn't work for everyone.

  17. #17
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    Every guild's officers get tired of running Kara. And it almost always happens well before your guild can stop running it. You just have to /sigh and run it until it actually becomes harmful to your progress to run it on raid nights.
    "We actually talked today about adding an item level 300 shirt that did absolutely nothing but mess with mods that attempt to boil down players to gear scores. " -Ghostcrawler

  18. #18
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    Hopefully everyone knows by now that healing meters aren't everything, and having full mana when other healers have half doesn't necessarily mean they aren't doing their job (potting early, 5 sec rule etc). Some healers like to spam as many people as they can and get high on the meters, that's fine. Some healers like to stick to who they're assigned to heal and only heal others when direly needed - and sometimes this is fine as well. Striking a balance between these two extremes is good for most raids I would say. As long as people don't die, I don't think there's a problem.

    As for the OP's original example, 11% of total raid healing isn't bad at all if there's at least 7 healers in the raid, especially since priests don't get PoM or PWS counted into their own heals. Also, if you really must look at numbers, check for overheal% as well as effective healing, as the two combined can be more telling of a healer's skill than just the one stat.

    Just keep things like this in mind when attempting to evaluate player skill. Things aren't always cut and dry.

  19. #19
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    Healing meters are valuable but very wide open to interpretation. You can achieve different results but mixing up assignments and roles within a raid. If you put a healer on your MT on trash, they will fall behind because the MT in most cases doesn't take alot of damage and the healer can either fight for scraps by popping in a few raide heals or just focus on the MT and fall down the meter. Just because a person is lower on the meter doesn't say much. WHY they are lower is the key. WHEN is critical. Are they the weakest healer by far during trash where no one dies and they are tasked with the MT and 1 or 2 are dedicated raid healers? ok, so what? Are they lowest healing for a boss fight where they are one of 5 assinged to keep the tank up through a ton of damage? Are they not casting the same spells as others? Are they focused and paying attention? Or are they watching TV, afk, chatting with friends through tells?
    your hat may be nice, but I have the little white tank top that says Legendary right across my boobs. I win. (or more correctly, H wins)

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by byechee View Post
    Hopefully everyone knows by now that healing meters aren't everything, and having full mana when other healers have half doesn't necessarily mean they aren't doing their job (potting early, 5 sec rule etc). Some healers like to spam as many people as they can and get high on the meters, that's fine. Some healers like to stick to who they're assigned to heal and only heal others when direly needed - and sometimes this is fine as well. Striking a balance between these two extremes is good for most raids I would say. As long as people don't die, I don't think there's a problem.

    As for the OP's original example, 11% of total raid healing isn't bad at all if there's at least 7 healers in the raid, especially since priests don't get PoM or PWS counted into their own heals. Also, if you really must look at numbers, check for overheal% as well as effective healing, as the two combined can be more telling of a healer's skill than just the one stat.

    Just keep things like this in mind when attempting to evaluate player skill. Things aren't always cut and dry.
    This is in kara. And her overheal is outrageous. I wouldn't have said anything to anyone... ran a heroic with her... unbuffed i'm about 14.5K health, so like what 15.5K in a heroic? Almost constantly I was going down to a few thousand health without one heal. I didn't say anything at first... but slowly... one tank is telling me she's bad... another person is telling me... another and another. All saying she sometimes is just not healing... she even said one time "Oh whoops guys I went to go get a drink." It's very frustrating it's that bad and yes she's been talked to... but never reprimanded. But people don't wanna be mean... I felt like I even went too far the other day when she was bragging about some epic dps boots she got... another priest linked me blues that were better for healing and I was like screw it - I told her "those are dps boots... these are better" and i linked them. "These are even better." Linked the boots from heroic mech.

    She gave me some excuse and i was like... talk to the other healer, he'll help you out.

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