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Thread: 2-Hand MS/Fury (Slam) PvE DPS

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    2-Hand MS/Fury (Slam) PvE DPS

    I have not found a thread that has discussed this spec and the information I am posting did not come from me so I do not take credit for any of the doing of the math or pictures etc.

    As a DPS Warrior there will be times you will be expected to OT (Off Tank) so it is always expected that you carry around a set of up to date tanking gear so that you can tank effectively in said instance, as in you don't bring Greens into BT (Black Temple) as tanking gear.
    (Following quoted from text but edited)
    "
    How slam works:
    Slam has a cast time (non-interruptible) of 1.5seconds, possible to talent to 0.5 seconds.When you start to cast it you stop the auto swing timer, and once you have finished the casting the auto swing is automatically restarted. The auto attack swing is RESET and starts over from the beginning again! Remember that slam still triggers the global cool down (1.5 seconds for warriors) so you cannot cast anything in 1.5 seconds even if you have talented slam. So why talent slam? Because the auto
    swing starts 1 second earlier! If you plan on casting one slam after another, there is little point in putting talent points in improved slam. The best way (as will be showed later in the cycles section) is to only cast one slam per auto swing attack.

    Here is a picture to better illustrate how it works (this one with some lag, and reaction time):

    (Link to Original Doc as well)
    http://www.honorbound.se/Slamdps2.pdf

    Data:
    For comparison, let’s use the following numbers: Assume weapon DPS is 131.5 (it was just easy to count on), and you roll at 3000 ATP. All as unmitigated and non critical hits, but crit’s and mitigation alter all damages equal. Normal hit’s glancing blows have been calculated in to it’s damage. Note these numbers are only theoretical, and DPS numbers derived from these are only theoretical, they are good to compare to see which spec is the best, how weapons speed affect DPS, and how they compare to each other. The derived DPS numbers however do not correspond do actual raid DPS. I have calculated the different damages for different weapon speeds assuming the weapon speed is the only thing that changes.

    Note that slam is not normalized!

    3.8 speed weapon
    Normal Hit:1235
    Slam:1454
    Mortal Strike:1417
    Whirlwind:1207

    3.7 speed weapon
    Normal Hit:1211
    Slam:1419
    Mortal Strike:1404
    Whirlwind:1194

    3.6 speed weapon
    Normal Hit:1169
    Slam:1385
    Mortal Strike:1391
    Whirlwind:1181

    3.5 speed weapon
    Normal Hit:1136
    Slam:1351
    Mortal Strike:1378
    Whirlwind:1168


    Slam triggers flurry, but do not consume flurry charges. So assuming you have good gear (30% + crit) you will virtually have flurry up constantly, thus I will assume it’s always up in my calculations.

    Cycles:

    In the following examples no lag or reaction time is included, that is done under weapon speed section. In this part only calculations for 3.8 speed weapons will be done.

    Auto swinging only: 406 DPS.
    Only rolling on auto-attack (flurried) will yield a DPSof 1235 damage per attack / (3.8 * (1/1.25)) = 406 DPS

    Slamming only: 969 DPS.
    Unrealistic since you will not have enough rage for it, but let’s count on it anyways with a 3.8 speed weapon (and no lag). 1454/1.5 = 969 DPS

    1 Auto attack, 1 slam: 760 DPS.
    The total attack time will be flurried attack speed + 0.5 seconds so (3.8*(1/1.25) + 0.5), and the damage is 940 + 1140 so (1235+1454)/(3.8*(1/1.25) +0.5) = 760 DPS.

    1 auto attack, 2 slams: 822 DPS
    The total attack time will be flurried attack speed + 1.5 + 0.5 seconds so (3.8*(1/1.25) + 2.0), and the damage is 1235+1454*2 so (1235+1454*2)/(3.8*(1/1.25) +2.0) = 822 DPS.

    1 auto attack, 1 slam, 1 Whirl Wind: 1101 DPS
    Assuming WW only hit’s one target. The total attack time will be flurried attack speed + 0.5 seconds so (3.8*(1/1.25) + 0.5), and the damage is 1235 + 1454 + 1207 so (1235 + 1454 + 1207)/(3.8*(1/1.25) +0.5) = 1101 dps.

    1 auto attack, 1 slam, 1 Mortal Strike: 1160 dps
    The total attack time will be flurried attack speed + 0.5 seconds so (3.8*(1/1.25) + 0.5), and the damage is 1235 + 1454 + 1417 so (1235 + 1454 + 1417)/(3.8*(1/1.25) +0.5) = 1160 dps.

    Weapon Speed.
    Let’s look at the 1 auto attack + 1 slam + 1 instant attack cycle above. As we can see
    there is some time in the end where we do pretty much nothing. In order to make the
    best cycle your hasted attack speed can never go below 2.5 seconds, if it does you will
    interrupt the cycle. But even 2.5 seconds is too little, you have to count in the lag and
    reaction time. After slam gcd has ended you have a ping roundtrip time before you
    can do your MC or WW. And after the auto attack has landed there will be a ping
    time + reaction time before your slam is registered at the server. With a ping of 100
    ms, and a reaction time of total 0.25 sec (reacting to auto hit = 0.2 sec and
    hammering MS button after Slam = 0.05 sec) minimum swing time would be 2.85
    seconds. Ie it’s bad to have an auto swing faster than 2.85 seconds (flurried/hasted),
    thats a 3.6 weapon. If you start casting slam before your auto hit lands, and virtually
    remove all lag (read on mages /cancel casting type of macros addons to understand
    how this works), you can use a 3.5 speed weapon. Do not forget to count in your haste
    gear (which is a great way to reduce you cycle time if you use a 3.8 speed weapon for
    example).

    Lets see how weapon speed affects the 1 attack, 1 slam 1 MS cycle. All weapons will
    be considered being flurried constantly. Included is also latency and reaction time ():

    3.8 speed weapon: 1055
    (1235 + 1454 + 1417 ) / (3.8*(1/1.25) + 0.5 + 0.35) = 1055

    3.7 speed weapon: 1059
    (1211 + 1419 + 1404 ) / (3.7*(1/1.25) + 0.5 + 0.35) = 1059

    3.6 speed weapon: 1059
    (1169 + 1385 + 1391 ) / (3.6*(1/1.25) + 0.5 + 0.35) = 1059

    3.5 speed weapon: 1060*
    (1136 + 1351 + 1378 ) / (3.5*(1/1.25) + 0.5 + 0.35) = 1060*

    *But since you would destroy the DPS cycle, this DPS is lower!
    As we can see slow weapon = more damage is a myth. While the hit’s will be
    weaker you will also increase the amount’s of slams and mortal strikes. However if
    you slack and have bad reaction time, high lag, poor fps etc, go with the safer option
    of a really slow weapon, it’s easier.

    The real DPS cycle
    So we can’t do the MS cycle every cycle, because MS has a 6 sec cooldown. You can
    however use it every other. The cycle in between is of the WW attack. We can also
    draw the conclusion that reducing the MS cool down (although that talent also
    increases damage, it’s still a waste since you can’t take imp flurry then) is a waste, as
    is reducing the cooldown on WW. WW has a 12 second cooldown so that only usable
    to fill every other hole from the MS cycles, what should we do in between? The 1
    autoattack + 1 slam or 1 autoattack + 2 slam? The 2 slam cycle is higher DPS but takes
    1.6 second (lag included) longer to complete, that one and a half second could be
    spent on the 900+ DPS cycles. (comparing 1 auto attack + 2 slams + 1 auto attack + 1
    slam + 1 MS vs. 1 auto attack + 2 slams + 1 auto attack + 1 slam + 1 MS shows that
    using only 1 slam is slightly better). So never double slam, even if MS and WW are
    on cooldown, it just costs rage and lowers your DPS . Use the time to recast Battle
    Shout or something, if you have excess rage use Heroic Strike/Cleave to up your
    DPS . Remember that the risk of rage starvation is high when using heroic strikes, and
    if you rage starve so you cannot cast MS. Use HS in situations where you are certain
    there is no or very little chance you will rage starve. Cleave can be used a little more
    freely if you DPS two targets, but it costs a lot of rage in rage not gained from yellow
    attacks, so if you are short in rage: don’t.
    The best possible DPS cycle is thus:

    1. 1 Auto attack, 1 Slam, 1 Mortal Strike.
    2. 1 Auto attack, 1 Slam, 1 Whirl Wind.
    3. 1 Auto attack, 1 Slam, 1 Mortal Strike.
    4. 1 Auto attack, 1 Slam.
    Repeat..


    Builds.
    33/28/0
    This is a very nice starter spec, and having Blood Frenzy will up raid DPS by a fair
    amount. Big back draw is that you only get 3/5 in flurry, and that hurt’s your DPS a lot.
    However the extra DPS the Blood Frenzy gives is threat free (you evenly spread the
    increased raid DPS , especially to classes with threat dumps which you lack) so it’s a
    nice spec none the less. If you are the only DPS warrior in the raid and you use a
    lot of melee DPS , this is probably the best spec. As you will not have full flurry, you
    can also grab the 3.5 speed weapons with good confidence!

    31/30/0
    This is a nice all-round slam DPS spec, if you have 2 slam warriors in the raid and the
    other warrior is 33/28/0 you should choose this, especially if you are geared in tier 4
    (or equivalent) or lower.

    20/41/0
    Once you get your gear sorted and is in the 3k+ ATP raidbuffed monster this spec will
    out-DPS the others. The normal attacks and slam attacks will do extreme damage, and
    you really need to start watching your threat. If you have the gear, go for it. Just as a
    comparison to the above numbers (with 10% more ATP, and Rampage up) the numbers
    would be:

    3.8 speed weapon
    Normal Hit:1382
    Slam:1522
    Bloodthirst:1609
    Whirlwind:1343

    The corresponding Hit-Slam-Blood Thirst cycle DPS would be: 1275.

    Note that this build scales a lot better with gear than the MS build, if you have worse
    gear you will do less damage than the MS build, and vice versa if you normally have
    4k ATP, the difference between the two builds will be even bigger! Although you will
    loose your weapon spec, but gain 3% free hit. No lag/reactiontime was included in
    this calculation, so compare it with the 1160 dps of the MS cycle.


    Slam DPS in reality.
    Slam DPS is a lot harder to play than fury warriors if you want to be #1 DPS . It’s no
    mindless spamming and you need to keep track on a lot of cool downs, especially if
    being fury 2 hand slam warrior (which has the highest potential for your own DPS ). If
    you are not prepared to give 110% don’t try it, you will be disappointed, go dual
    wielding fury as it’s a lot easier to play.

    Get an auto swing timer. It’s a must have!
    Shaman is a must have in your group. It’s extremely vital you have a WF totem
    all the time. Yes even after the WF nerf. You will rage-starve otherwise.
    Slam DPS is fairly easy to get gear for, while dual wielding is much more requiring. 2h
    fury slam scales extremely well with gear.
    Slam DPS has one big back draw; you can’t run around. In very mobile fights, you
    can just forget about being top DPS . Static fights is where you will shine.
    And how
    well can you DPS and compete for top DPS spot? After the WF nerf (WF only procs on
    normal white attacks) I could still pull over 1000 DPS and that is with a mix of PvP
    gear, T4 and a T5 or two on Void Reaver.

    Note:
    Once again I do not take any credit for any of this math done or the writing Im just posting it up here and editing it highlighting things as I saw fit here is the link to the original doc.

    (Original Doc:http://www.honorbound.se/Slamdps2.pdf)
    Regards:
    Rikosuave

    Last edited by Rikosuave; 01-30-2008 at 03:46 PM.

  2. #2
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    Good post, more indepth than any we've seen in 2hand dps, we have had other threads but not this composed, I'll move to Damage Per Second Forums, and Sticky.

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  3. #3
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    I would love to see more on this spec.
    20/41/0

  4. #4
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    I believe the guide was already posted somewhere on here, but was never actually reproduced.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kylo View Post
    I would love to see more on this spec.
    20/41/0
    I currently don't have the gear to be able to test this out as of yet but if there are any takers feel free, if not Im working on getting the best gear possible for 2 -hand Fury Slam.

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    You should change that dark green text it is hard to read on a dark blue background

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rikosuave View Post
    I currently don't have the gear to be able to test this out as of yet but if there are any takers feel free, if not Im working on getting the best gear possible for 2 -hand Fury Slam.
    21/40 (with death wish) is better than 20/41 (with rampage) because you need 50-55 rage for a slam rotation and refresh rampage (20 rage) every time is a risk of rage starvation.

    i have 3200ap (raid buff) and 21/40 outperform my ex 33/28 spec

  8. #8
    I tried this spec out with full s2/s3 + s3 mace. compared to 33/28, my damage is crazy now(my dps jumped 100-200 easily), and i also have capped hit(precision + pvp gear hit), so this spec with arena gear is pretty nicely itemized.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Landais View Post
    21/40 (with death wish) is better than 20/41 (with rampage) because you need 50-55 rage for a slam rotation and refresh rampage (20 rage) every time is a risk of rage starvation.

    i have 3200ap (raid buff) and 21/40 outperform my ex 33/28 spec

    You really feel that you are making up the difference of the raid not having Blood Frenzy? I have a hard time believing that.

  10. #10
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    for personnal dps : yes

    for raid dps : totally no

    actually its farming time so i use this spec for fun but when sunwell come i respec 33/28 for raid optimisation.

  11. #11
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    i re did the math for the 3.6 by the way if you guys want the stats, the dps is a higher then the 3.8 weapons, but as mention its more risky, although its more viable, since you need to lower flurry to get blood frenzy, here they are:

    First rotation
    Normal + Slam + MS = 1167 dps
    Normal + Slam + WW = 1105 dps
    Normal + Slam = 755 dps
    As you can see dps is slightly better of a few points, but you must be careful with ping, although you get blood frenzy

  12. #12
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    Hey, i was just wondering how you guy shave the rage for this? im lvl 66 atm with shaarde of the greater, and doing this boosts my dps for lvling but its sporadic because i cant do the rotations due to rage problems.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Meeks View Post
    You really feel that you are making up the difference of the raid not having Blood Frenzy? I have a hard time believing that.
    I am some what underwhelmed by the Blood Frenzy Contribution after doing the math unless im doing it wrong. Adding the 4% contribution from other melee classes rog/hunt/war/ench shaman/feral druid to my dps it rarely moves me up one slot in the overall damage on a boss fight more often it doesnt.

    Mean while I look at the fury warriors dps compared to mine and think that it would be better off for the raid if I just went to 1 handed fury.

    Maybe I am looking at it the wrong way I dunno but when I see an equally geared ret paladin producing the same dps as me, and more on undead/demons while providing 3% raid crit and 2% melee damage to group I feel rather worthless.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgrim Warcry View Post
    I am some what underwhelmed by the Blood Frenzy Contribution after doing the math unless im doing it wrong. Adding the 4% contribution from other melee classes rog/hunt/war/ench shaman/feral druid to my dps it rarely moves me up one slot in the overall damage on a boss fight more often it doesnt.
    Napkin math, with simplified numbers:

    Let's say your raid has 6 melee and 2 Hunters, contributing 1000 DPS each. Let's also toss in 1000 DPS by combining the output of the 2-3 tanks. So, that's 9k DPS worth of physical damage; Blood Frenzy would add 360 DPS to that.

    So the MS Warrior could do a measly 700 DPS and still be boosting the total raid output more than a 1k DPS Fury Warrior.

    If your raid has more physical DPS than above, then the BF contribution will also go up. Just look at a raid parse from one of your runs and do some rough math to see what it'd provide. It's up to you to determine if you can surpass the BF bonus just by switching from Arms to Fury. I agree with Meeks and others: unlikely for a lot of players, without significant work put into gearing.
    Last edited by phaze; 05-19-2008 at 02:00 PM.

  15. #15
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    Hey,

    this warrior did a lot of DPS:

    Kaupen - WWS

    Adding 4% melee dps from BF the DPS ist about 2650. How is this possible?

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowmotion View Post
    Adding 4% melee dps from BF the DPS ist about 2650. How is this possible?
    Windfury makes the world go round!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Meeks View Post
    You really feel that you are making up the difference of the raid not having Blood Frenzy? I have a hard time believing that.
    speaks for it self, if there's 1 2h dps warrior in the raid set up, the best is 1 with BF(4%pysdmg). and if there is two or more, it's no reason for him to be BF specced, and 21/40 is a better option, or ofc 17/41.
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by phaze View Post
    Windfury makes the world go round!
    Multiple Bloodlusts as well. And here is an example of a fight as 33/28 with 1 BL and only one (misclicked) Slam:

    Wow Web Stats

  19. #19
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    Hello, I've been pulling out 2-handed pve dps periodically for kicks when I'm not tanking and I've been looking to maximize my dps. I was linked to your guide from another site, and I saw people discussing 21/40, a spec I had never really considered (I'm going to leave 20/41 for the moment as I doubt most will ever have the rage flow to really make it turn).

    Specifically, I'm rocking a cat's edge, and I was having a hard time believing sword spec would ever be worth sacrificing. I just thought I'd take your numbers and do some back of the envelope calculations for my needs. Take it or leave it as you see fit.

    Differences between Arms/Fury
    10% more AP in deep fury (so change assumption to 3300 AP up from 3000)
    5/5 Flurry vs 3/5 Flurry
    Sword Spec vs Nothing
    3/5 2-handed spec vs 5/5 2-handed spec

    With these assumptions we can swap out MS from your rotation for BT
    Blood Thirst:
    3300AP * .45 = 1485 damage

    Next, for 21/40, we can dock Auto-Attack and Slam by 2% for lost 2-handed spec: 1136/1.02-> 1114, 1351/1.02 ->1325, we also need to adjust these numbers up for the extra AP.... for auto-attack 300/14 *3.3 *1.03-> ~73, so 1187. For slam 300/14*3.5*1.03 -> ~77, so 1402.

    Next, for 33/28, we have 3 swings, each swing has a 5% chance to get an extra swing. In expected damage .05*1136 = 56.8 and 3x per cycle ~170 damage.

    I'm using .25 for my personal latency as it's far more consistent with my personal observations in raids.

    21/40:
    (1325 + 1402 + 1485 ) / (3.5*(1/1.25) + 0.5 + 0.25) ~= 1186


    33/28
    (170 + 1136 + 1351 + 1378 ) / (3.5*(1/1.15) + 0.5 + 0.25) ~= 1038


    But maybe that's an unfair comparison since one debuffs the mob for the raid, how about:

    31/30
    (170 + 1136 + 1351 + 1378 ) / (3.5*(1/1.25) + 0.5 + 0.25) ~= 1137

    In conclusion, attack power scales stupidly well, forget sword spec :/

    Peace, hope that helps out.

  20. #20
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    Actually I'm probably being unfair to sword spec, since unlike your earlier assumptions, adding into critical strikes will, in fact, make a bigger difference for sword spec than the other rotation.

    Ah well, I'm too tired to try and back of the envelope that change today. Peace.

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