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Thread: [Guide Request] Over-compensating.

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by superwombat View Post
    Just wanted to note that this is not the case. There are 3 taunts in the game that actually give you threat as high as the current target AND force the mob to target you, one each for druid pally and warrior.

    Challenging Shout, Challenging Roar, and Mocking Blow ONLY force the mob to target you for 6 seconds, after which they will return to their original target unless you have caused enough threat to outdo all the damage done.

    Thus those moves will not save a crazy AOEer, all they will do is give the healer 6 seconds to catch up on heals, at which point all the mobs will switch back to whoever has highest threat... most likely whoever was AOEing.
    Thx, didn't know that.
    But at least we still got taunt ^_^.

  2. #22
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    Tryxx I did the same thing as you--went prot from lvl 10. It's worth it. As for idiots in groups. . . ask them once nicely then after that simply don't taunt off them. If they don't learn their lesson by dying you'd be surprised how far you can get in most instances 4 manning them with people who know what to do.

    Oh I forgot. . . I don't taunt off of pets or VW. I let them tank. If they're stupid enough to leave growl on or pull out a VW then they can mend it.

  3. #23
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    Time to start replying to all these.

    First - keybinds and tanking. Here's my current UI. (The picture is pretty big, I use 1900 x 1200 resolution) http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/5...8192056bv2.jpg

    The top bar changes when I change stances, the bottom two are constant. I have access to all my abilities without any changes in reach. I ended up binding my side mouse buttons to Shift and Control respectively. At this time I don't have enough abilities to expand the bars more, but that's fine for now. I've got everything I need. It helps me stay on top of everything with all my abilities, just need to get the macros put in.

    As for tanking multiple mobs: On trash and stuff this hasn't been a problem in the instances I've been in so far. I pop Bloodrage and go to town with Sunders on the main target. I read somewhere to put at least three on the rest of the trash, and with Thunderclap and Demo shout, I really haven't had an issue. The only times there is a bit of trouble is when a DPS'er wants to be at the top of the meter, pets growls, etc. Omen keeps me pretty well in line, and I find that a lot of players actually use it.

    Idiots in pugs: I've found or just noticed more playing my Warrior than my other characters. I suppose you just have to notice the subtleties of the other classes and see what they're doing wrong. I've always had a fair understanding with my classes and would talk to the tank about using Blade Flurry or something like that on my rogue. This is not the case for most groups. Most of the time I get the attitude, "It doesn't matter till we hit Outland, lighten up." I find it difficult to explain that I'd like to learn my class well. I have a small guild with experienced alts, but the guys haven't been on in awhile, so I haven't gotten my guild runs lately. I'll get by though.

    Lately I'm just starting to find I have questions about certain in encounters, and not really just general tanking. For instance, on the Lobster boss in Slave Pens, if I'm low on health wouldn't using Last Stand not be good since how the bleed effect works? Things of that nature. In that regard, I also need to research more encounters, on my other characters it was simply "blast things" or "stab things" just trying not to get hit in mind. A lot of this stuff will just come with time though.

    I appreciate all the replies though! Keep 'em coming!

  4. #24
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    I'm not the most experienced (or skilled, for that matter) warrior, so take all this with a grain of salt.

    First and foremost, THANK YOU for striving to improve your tanking. By even attempting to improve your skills, you're already better than half the "tanks" out there.

    One thing I might suggest to you to practice tanking is to respec. Put a full 41 points into Fury or Arms, and then the rest in Prot. This will not only make things harder for you (which is a *good* thing while leveling - you're more likely to survive mishaps at lower levels), but also give you a much more in-depth knowledge and feel for tanking. If you can tank without using SS, Devastate, etc, then how much more effective will you be *with* those abilities?

    Speaking from personal experience (having spent much of my time as an Arms warrior), being specced Arms has helped my tanking greatly; not so much the mechanical side (when to use SS or Devastate, for example), but in the execution side of things. As an example, even with good gear, I take more damage than a prot warrior - I've had to learn how to keep mitigation up so I don't die or cause my healers to have nervous meltdowns (which still happens on occasion).

    You can apply this concept more generally too - the more you know about *other* classes, the better you'll be able to tank. Have a priest pull aggro? Wait for them to fade , rather than wasting a taunt.

    Related to this, and similar to what others have posted, sometimes people in your party *should* die. I can't tell you how many times I've let rogues tank simply because they wouldn't stop pulling aggro. If a DPSer doesn't know when to lower their damage output, they need to learn. As tempting as it is to try to be the hero and save an expendable party member (and DPSers *are* expendable, usually), DON'T do it. In some cases you may blow a bunch of rage to save a mage, only to have your priest die because you had to lower your threat output on other mobs.

    Another greatly useful skill is mob positioning. This is harder to learn at low levels because mobs are fairly boring, but as you near 70, mobs will start doing things that will kill people if you're not careful. Tank mobs with knockbacks against walls, turn mobs with cleave, tank mobs with Arcane Explosion (or similar effects) AWAY from the casters.

    Finally, we come to emergency situations: pulls gone horridly wrong, half your group dying in seconds, etc. The best way to learn with these is to know your abilities and class inside-out. You don't have time when you've pulled 8 mobs to think about the pros and cons of using Challenging Shout vs Thunderclapping and sundering what you can. A lot of it boils down to personal style, and a lot of it boils down to luck. What you do will depend on your group composition and skill. There's no cut-and-dry method, and you can't get better at it. Don't get me wrong, you can learn to handle those situations, but not through practicing them.

    If you do run in to messy pulls and the like, part of being a good tank is realizing when you've "lost." Sometimes you just can't win, so learn to handle wipes smoothly. If a pally casts Divine Intervention, don't run away with the mobs in an attempt to "buy time," or other things like that. If a priest is soulstoned, make sure the group dies close together, and away from where a group of mobs might normally be standing.

    Keep in mind that it's sometimes better to wipe than to blow cooldowns. If you're two pulls from a boss, and you end up with both groups, don't blow Shield Wall, Challenging Shout, and Last Stand, or you may wipe on the boss instead (and chances are, you'll wipe on the mobs anyway).

    Oh yeah, about Last Stand and Shield wall, and those types of abilities. Remember that they're not just tools to keep you from dying. Last Stand isn't just a heal - it increases your maximum hit points. Sometimes it's worth using it even if you're almost full to prepare for a silenced healer or a big chain of hits. You'll receive less overhealing. Shield Wall can also be useful even if you're not getting hit extremely hard. In a fight with lots of group damage happening, a well timed Shield Wall can allow a healer to squeeze off an extra heal on that Hunter, or lets them take a break and regen some mana. On the other hand, you want to make sure you don't blow them if you might have an emergency later in the fight.

    Heh, I didn't mean to write so much, but I hope you got something out of it after wading through all that text . I'd also like to repeat that I'm not the greatest tank you'll find, and invite people to come refute my points.

    Also, whoo first post.

    Edit/Update:
    Attempted to clarify some points. Apologies if it didn't work :P.

    I also wanted to point out that my instructions ("Turn mobs with cleave," etc) are examples rather than dumb instructions.
    Last edited by shiz98; 01-13-2008 at 06:27 PM.

  5. #25
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    Oh yeah, one more thing.

    Humans learn from mistakes - don't be afraid to make them. Experimentation is key.

  6. #26
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    Personally...

    I would level as fury even if I wanted to tank. From 1-60 I tanked as arms spec, and from 60-70 I tanked as fury spec. Just carry a shield to switch to when you tank.

    You absolutely do not have to be specced for a specific role to perform that role. However, once you reach 70, you will have great benefits from speccing according to your role.

    When it comes to PuGs (and 99% of my dungeon runs have been PuGs) I don't tolerate people who refuse to take advice or learn how to play better. If I tell you to turn growl off and you refuse, I boot you. I've had far too many bad dungeon runs to deal with people being complete noobs.

    The world of warcraft needs skilled tanks that are willing to learn and listen to advice, good luck to you sir!
    "SHUT UP AND LISTEN!"

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finelle View Post
    It's perfectly possible to hold 4+ mobs as a warrior. The most important thing I have to do is get them arranged in front of me. After the initial threat application of Tclap, I have a few seconds to Devastate the couple mobs that didn't get Tclapped.
    Please explain to me how you know which mobs didn't get thunderclapped in order to know which mobs to devastate (why instead of SS or Rev also).

    There is really no way to tank more than 4 mobs without dying unless you're in T6 gear running way lower instances. Sorry. I like to stay alive and tank 3 or less.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiz98 View Post
    First and foremost, THANK YOU for striving to improve your tanking. By even attempting to improve your skills, you're already better than half the "tanks" out there.
    Your welcome! I wish everyone would try. I may not play as much as I actually work, but I still like to be good at what I do.

    One thing I might suggest to you to practice tanking is to respec.
    I've considered respeccing to work on the other aspects of the class, but this is entirely up to my spare gold. All of my characters are poor. My rogue and mage didn't have their regular epic mount until 66 each. My respec cost is 15G already, so I'm a bit worried about that. Though I have tanken to dealing ore and leather out, but it hasn't helped me much, since I use the materials to level Engineering/Blacksmithing/Leatherworking, respectively.

    I've had to learn how to keep mitigation up so I don't die or cause my healers to have nervous meltdowns (which still happens on occasion)
    .

    I'm a bit undergeared at the moment. If I start trying to tank in other specs it will be after 40, when I get one of the instant attacks, and due to Blacksmithing, can switch right in to plate.


    Also, I think I know the other classes fairly well, so I know what they CAN do, I just don't always see them do it. For instance: Real rogues don't use feint.



    If you do run in to messy pulls and the like, part of being a good tank is realizing when you've "lost."
    I think I have a pretty good concept of this, but I haven't had anyone die while actually at the keyboard yet, so hopefully I can learn this point slowly. I've got enough group experience on my other characters to know what to really do. I DO have a hard time reminding my girlfriend NOT to run away if she has aggro. For some reason she can't get out of the kiting experience with her hunter.



    Oh yeah, about Last Stand and Shield wall, and those types of abilities.
    I haven't really been in a situation where these abilties have been necessary at all. The only time I blow my large cooldowns is usually with PvP. I can't tell you how many times I've popped Retalliation on a rogue that tries to gank me. (I'm not good at PvP, so I have to do what I have to.) But as far as instance play, I've not ran into a necessary situation just yet. That'll come with experience I'm sure.

    Also, whoo first post.
    Ding, level one post! Gratz!
    Quote Originally Posted by Razor
    When it comes to PuGs (and 99% of my dungeon runs have been PuGs) I don't tolerate people who refuse to take advice or learn how to play better. If I tell you to turn growl off and you refuse, I boot you. I've had far too many bad dungeon runs to deal with people being complete noobs.

    The world of warcraft needs skilled tanks that are willing to learn and listen to advice, good luck to you sir!
    Everytime I think of a horrible PuG, it's BRD. *Shudders.* For some reason that instance just saps the intelligence of group.

    Quote Originally Posted by Leytur
    There is really no way to tank more than 4 mobs without dying unless you're in T6 gear running way lower instances. Sorry. I like to stay alive and tank 3 or less.
    Really, I've actually only "tanked" a bunch of mobs once. That was in BFD when my girlfriend lit three torches at once, without knowing what they were for. There were four of us at the time. The rogue vanished and didn't fight. He thought we were going to die. I picked up as much as I could, and my girlfriend and the Pally just traded heals on me. That's not a good example.

    When I think of learning how to tank large groups, I think of the UD 45 Strat run. On my mage I was always told to go in and AoE. Sure, I'd have to get quite a bit of heals, but the the tank would ALWAYS end up picking them back up, and the healer would have mana to spare.
    Last edited by Tryxx; 01-14-2008 at 08:13 AM.

  9. #29
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    I tanked all of UBRS with a Spinal Reaper and DPS gear back in the day.

    Good times.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leytur View Post
    There is really no way to tank more than 4 mobs without dying unless you're in T6 gear running way lower instances. Sorry. I like to stay alive and tank 3 or less.
    If you mean that in instances with really hard hitting mobs you cant afford to tank 4+ because they will kill you, thats obviously true. But if you mean you cant hold hate on 4+ mobs while tanking thats not true.

    Thunderclap only effects 4 but if you move after every thunderclap it will hit a different 4 targets. I use the multi-mob tanking macro found on this site under "mozeman's macros" to handle heroic shattered halls and some other cases where i want to generate hate on 4+ mobs.

    Best tool is to have a "skull" macro that puts up the raid mark, you spam cleave, thunderclap and constantly switch targets, but reserve revenge/Shield slam for the skull target, you wont lose aggro to the healers and folks can still dps pretty hard. I cant hold aggro on a bunch of mobs during AOE though - thats still a pally job :-) (I dont have a shield spike).

  11. #31
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    It's pretty easy to tell which mobs got hit by TC. They are the ones who have a bit of lightning swirling around thier feat for a second after the blast wave.

  12. #32
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    Keep in mind that while it's possible to "aim" thunderclap at different mobs, it doesn't mean you can tank a ton at once. The more mobs you have on you, the more damage you take. The more damage you take, the more aggro your healer is generating. At a certain point, your healer will start aggroing mobs because you can't generate enough threat with thunderclap to offset healing aggro.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leytur View Post
    Please explain to me how you know which mobs didn't get thunderclapped in order to know which mobs to devastate (why instead of SS or Rev also).

    There is really no way to tank more than 4 mobs without dying unless you're in T6 gear running way lower instances. Sorry. I like to stay alive and tank 3 or less.
    Wrong. I can tank 5-6 mobs, every time -- on my blues/KZ-geared warrior.

    In normal instances, that's the only way to get rage.

    By the way, you don't have to know which mobs are hit (though you can see it by looking at their feet). All you have to do is move just before you hit Thunderclap so you don't hit the same four targets every time. If you're unlucky and a mob doesn't get hit and your healer peels him off you, well, that's what Intervene and Taunt are for.
    風林火山陰雷

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    Dovie'andi se tovya sagain - it's time to roll the dice

  14. #34
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    Ugh.

    I don't want to PuG anymore.

    My girlfriend and I made an SM - Library Group. The group makeup was Myself - Warrior, Holy Priest, two Warlocks, and a Mage.

    Before even going into the instance I knew I'd have trouble with the Scarlet Galliant's; the chain Hammer of Justice makes holding aggro hard enough as it is. Couple this with two Warlocks and a Mage DPS'ing as hard as they can because I suppose it's all they know. One 'Lock had a Voidwalker out, which helped a bit when I was stunned, but made things difficult as well. One good thing came out of this, I learned how to stance dance: Taunt and Mocking Blow were constantly on cooldown. Once again, I had to deal with constant AoE, but somehow overcame it. I was somewhat impressed with how I grabbed the Scarlet Beastmasters and kept them in melee range.

    After the third pull one of the Warlocks leaves. This isn't really too bad, we're able to four-man it to the Houndmaster. Ok, I thought I could handle this pretty well. I used my Brutal Haulberk, and Bloodrage. Charged in, got off a Thunderclap and Demo shout, and started Sundering till my hearts content. I believe it's going well, till I notice the 'Lock and Mage have mana, too much mana. They're just standing there. ...quickly that changes, the 'Lock sacrificed the Voidwalker, runs right beside me, and starts Hellfiring. I could understand Reign of Fire, even Blizzard from the mage... but no, Reign of Fire. Well, she gets aggro on a few of the hounds on her while my girlfriend is trying to keep up with the healing. She dies, and I die. The Mage leaves the group right when I die. The 'Lock tried to run out of the instance, died, and leaves the group. Leaving both my girlfriend and I dead in the instance.

    How am I supposed to deal with that?

    I don't want to PuG anymore.
    Last edited by Tryxx; 01-17-2008 at 02:40 PM.

  15. #35
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    I cannot stand PuGs, but people like you and me are forced to go on them because it's just too difficult to get a guild that is organized enough to do regular instance runs. I'm in a guild with over 500 members, we try to get dungeons ran regularly but there's just no way to organize that many people. I really wish there was an effective way to do it.
    "SHUT UP AND LISTEN!"

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