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Thread: [Guide Request] Over-compensating.

  1. #1
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    [Guide Request] Over-compensating.

    Hello, first post and all that. Let me know if I'm doing something wrong.

    I've recently started a Warrior. At the moment he's level 31, and all his points are in Protection. I'm never solo'ing, always accompanied by my faithful Holy Priest. (Signifigant other and all that good stuff.) The reason I'm specc'ed as such, is simply because I want to learn my class to the best of my ability. I know at such levels that it's hard to even tell what spec some classes are, and gameplay doesn't differ much, but I'd like the experience.

    I want to be one of the tanks I levelled with; those who after the first pull were added to my friends list because you could simply tell they knew how to do their job well, and we could count on them to take care of business. My two main characters being a mage and rogue, I never took much notice what the tank was doing, hell on my mage all I did was hit "2" and I was doing my job. Still, there were moments when you could see that they saved the group. I want to be one of those people.

    That being said, I'm running into a few problems. I want to learn how to compensate for my groups mistakes. For example, the Rogue who thinks Expose Armor is awesome, or the Shaman that insists pulling with Frost Shock is the way to go. Etc.

    I've over come a few challenges already. At first I refused to use Taunt. It seemed like such a cruch ability, and I didn't want to rely on it so much, then I found how necessary it was. I'm getting more used to keybinds to have all my abilities at the ready. (Admitedly they're not on the keyboard, rather the mouse, but it works for me.) Still having trouble keeping Battle Shout up, and the auto attack with switching targets occasionally makes me lag behind, but most of those things will come with experience. I've read the guides and love them. Appreciate all the work that is in them, (Also downloaded the E-Book) but if any of those questions could be addressed, I'd appreciate it.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tryxx View Post
    That being said, I'm running into a few problems. I want to learn how to compensate for my groups mistakes. For example, the Rogue who thinks Expose Armor is awesome, or the Shaman that insists pulling with Frost Shock is the way to go. Etc.
    Really the best way to deal with these 2 things is by asking them to stop. let the rogue know that expose armor gives the "a stronger spell is already active' message.And that although EA offers better armour reduction than sunder (at least in the low number of applications,) the threat generated by sunder is absolutely crucial to your ability to control said mobs.

    let the shammy know that group play and solo play are vastly different, and that it is substantially easier for you to pull,easier to maintain initial aggro, than to try gain aggro off him(on multiple mobs.)if a friendly suggesation like that doesn't work enforcing a strict "you spank it, you tank it" policy and letting them run up some reair bills for a change tends to work

    As the tank you will tend to initiate most combat, so naturally you will take on a bit of a leadership role. As such one thing a tank needs to do is identify the roots of any failure, be it flaws in your own play, or flaws in the play of your group.Addressing these can be tricky, so just remember to be polite(haha, i bet many i have grouped with wish i had.)

    remember that at the level range you are there are many players who are new to grouping(and/or new to grouping with their new alt.) many players either solo or run with a small (one or two other people) group until then. even many who have other toons may not be completely comfortable if their toon plays a vastly different role in the group dynamic, like a healer playing his first high DPS toon for example, and they may not be aware of how their play affects the group as a whole.
    Last edited by Calamity; 01-04-2008 at 10:55 PM.

  3. #3
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    Yes, of course there's always asking, but it's amazing while relevelling again how many new players are just starting. Though, I've always thought the best tanks were the ones that prevented a wipe when someone else did something stupid.

    Just the other day I was doing Gnomer at level 30. My group was compromised of another Warrior (who was Fury, and level 35), a Priest, Hunter, and Ret Pally.

    The hunter refused to turn off growl, so the Pally used BoS on it. That was all well and good, but it still wasn't easy to hold aggro, though I think I managed ok. The biggest problem was the other Warrior who being 5 levels higher than me, with excellent rage generation was Cleave spamming, and his shouts and Thunderclap were a higher rank than mine. I really didn't have to worry about him taking damage, but I felt like I just wasn't doing my job. What should I do in a situation like that?

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    I'm currently in the process of levelling another warrior (an orc, this time). I'm levelling him as Fury -- and I don't *tank* instances. I tank bosses. During trash, I simply go nuts with Cleave and Whirlwind. It works fine.
    風林火山陰雷

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    Quote Originally Posted by Norrath View Post
    I'm currently in the process of levelling another warrior (an orc, this time). I'm levelling him as Fury -- and I don't *tank* instances. I tank bosses. During trash, I simply go nuts with Cleave and Whirlwind. It works fine.
    no good advice imho. You are not leveling your first warrior, but Tryxx does and has to lern to tank.
    Especially multimob tanking. Holding aggro on a single mob is not verry hard. Holding aggro on 4+ Mobs and still having an eye on your environment and your party members gets more challenging and needs to be practised.
    In addition holding threat with ww/swipe as a fury warrior works only if you are extremely overgeared since your party is capped at 80% (70% imp. bers. stance) of your damage or you don't care if party members get aggro.

    I am tanking most parts of instances with 1h/shield, switching to dualwield if I lack enough rage. I think it gets you smother trough any instance if the tank does his job.

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    Indeed. I know when it'll work and when it won't (for example, I DPS'd all through SM Cath until we actually got to the Cathedral, whereafter I jumped in tank gear).

    I'm still surprised at how well it works, though.

    I didn't mean to suggest he do it as well -- I'm just saying, it's possible.
    風林火山陰雷

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    Dovie'andi se tovya sagain - it's time to roll the dice

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    Quote Originally Posted by Norrath View Post
    I'm still surprised at how well it works, though.
    Especially if youre playing a twink warrior which is really good equipped. Yesterday I went maraudon with my twink and used mostly dualwield until we reached this huge stone elementals right on the way to the princess.
    Charge - Berserkerstance - berserker rage - whirlwind then go defstance and thunder/swipe will hold your aggro on 4+ mobs really good. Occasionally I switch back into bers. stance to do an other whirlwind and reactivate berserker rage. Works really good if you are not taking absurd amounts of damage and your healer is oom every 2 pulls.
    I like closet gnome with my 2 sets (dw / 1h+shield) on hotkey to swich weapons fast so I can get my shield out instantly if it is required.

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    At lower levels, I strongly suggest you to follow the "If no one dies, it's fine" mind-set. Use leveling to get comfortable with the class and skills (very good idea to level as Protection). If you fail think what might have gone wrong and how could you prevent that. Tanking basically consists of two things: awareness and response (900+ TPS doesn't make you a good tank, no matter what others tell you).

    Awareness & Response:
    Learn to constantly scan the area for any loose mobs or adds (hold down your left mouse button to rotate camera without moving your character). If you can predict when you lose aggro on a mob, even better. You have to stop that add that runs toward other members of your group. It helps if you position yourself so you stand between the mob and your group (your back to the group). This way the mob is not immediately "out of range" because it has to run past you. Of course, some mobs have cone attacks and those can't be tanked that way.

    When you see a mob running toward your group you have several options:
    • Taunt it
    • use Concussion on it (talent skill)
    • use Intervene (lvl 68 skill, I think) on it to protect your group member and get to the mob (mob was out of range for you)
    • Intercept (use Intervene instead if possible...you need to stance-dance for Intercept and that means at least 2 sec for Taunt/Mocking Blow to land)

      When you finally manage to get the mob to attack you again, apply a few threat skills on it so it's glued on you for at least a few seconds.

    Aggro:
    Having and holding aggro is all about proper skill usage (I didn't use the word "rotation" on purpose because it's misleading). I suggest you read this to shed some light on the matter.

    "Skill rotation" is misleading because it makes you think you have to spam skills in predictable and reliable way like a circle. This is wrong. I prefer the term "skill priority". Assuming you have enough rage, proper skill priority is this:
    • 1. Shield Slam (talent skill) - use it as soon as you can, it should *always* be on cooldown

      2. Revenge - use it whenever you can (use Shield Slam instead if you can). Sometimes I use Revenge first and then Shield Slam immediately after but only when I am stunned/CCed because I am afraid the Revenge would expire. This way I get to use both skills and not only Shield Slam

      3. Devastate/Sunder Armor - if both, Shield Slam and Revenge, are either unavailable or on CD then spam Devastate/Sunder until you can use Revenge/Shield Slam again.

      4. Heroic Strike - if you are comfortable with all three skills above, you can throw in a Heroic Strike when you have enough rage (above 40-50 rage). This is an opportunity-skill so don't focus on it. If you miss/forget to use it sometimes, don't worry. It's more important to focus on the first three.

    If you find yourself rage-starved (lacking rage) it's better to use Revenge and Devastate/Sunder Armor before Shield Slam because they are more rage efficient.



    For the end, let me say again. Use leveling to get comfortable with the play style (meaning, don't panic if you can't perform everything 100% at level 40). Also, you can't tank very well without using key bindings (avoid clicking at all cost...you can't scan the area with clicking). I hope this helps.

  9. #9
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    Oh, one more thing. Warrior can successfully tank only up to four mobs. 5 and more require your group to go easy on DPS and focus on the skull. Even then it's risky because your healer will aggro due to you taking so much damage. Of course, if you are overgeared for the instance healing aggro should not be a problem (e.g. SSC geared tank goes Old Hillsbrad normal).

    Warrior tanks who say you should be able to tank 5 or more mobs is exaggerating. 4 is your limit due to Tunderclap (even that requires Improved TC). 5 mobs mean one will have to get ignored by TC, 6 mean two will have to get ignored and so forth. Usually 5 and more is doable only when most of your group is dead (only you and healer). I remember tanking 7 mobs (treants near the tree boss) in Dire Maul once but that was like 2 years ago (a few months after WoW went live) so it's definetly doable but such moments will be rare.

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    Appreciate all the help, everyone.

    I've tanked WC, SFK, BFD, and Gnomer. I haven't had anyone die yet, at this level, not sure how much of an accomplishment that is. (Also, it helps when my girlfriend is in speaking distance and an awesome healer )

    I've read about the rotations, stats, all that good stuff quite a bit. I know with the expectations I have that I'll need to know all my resources and facts.

    I just got Concussion, but haven't really had a chance to work it in without sacrficing rage. I tend to be pretty rage starved quite a bit. Usually I try to have 3 Sunders on trash in groups, with a Sheild Block -> Revenge -> Sunder rotation. I don't usually have to venture far from this, aside from the occasional Thunderclap and Demo Shout. Even then, I try not to use those if I don't have, like I said before, rage starved.

  11. #11
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    Don't use Shield Block if you are rage-starved. Shield Block is useful for tanking mobs 3 levels above you or bosses (those with skull) to increase your chance to prevent crushing blows. I guess in normal scenarios it could be said the same as for Heroic Strike - use it only if you have plenty of rage.

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    I started using Shield Block to get used to the: Shield Slam -> Revenge -> Devestate rotation. I know the cooldown is slightly off, but it seemed viable. Otherwise it doesn't seem like I'm doing much of anything. :lol:

    On another note: My girlfriend ruined my "no deaths" streak. I went AFK in Gnomer while we were four maning it, Warrior, Priest, Rogue, Shaman. She thought she could jump into the non-elites and Holy Nova, it was sad. So, Pro-Tip, don't let anyone be dissillusioned by a mages AoE capability.

    On that same note, any quick suggestions for tanking in AoE groups like that? Strat comes to mind most prominently when I think of that.

  13. #13
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    Imp bloodrage for instant shield slams is awesome. Opening with Tclaps prior to CC is always a plus when pulling 3+ mobs(also helps keep your Shield block up). I leveled non prot and did fine with just stacking lots of stam for my tank gear, so you should be even better off.
    Also one thing that REALLY helped me in tanking is really understanding how taunt works. It not only diverts the aggro to you temporarily, but also matches you in threat with whoever is highest on the meter. So actually timing your taunt with a shield slam or revenge immediatly after is almost gauranteeing that you will keep that threat afterwards.
    Stance dancing is your best freind prior to 70(intervene @70).
    Make sure you keep macro's on your hotbar. i suggest replacing your charge/intercept hotkeys with an all in one charge/intercept in/out of combat macro(look to Mozman's Macro's for this, it will be earlier in on the faq). I actually keybind my 3 stances to my 1-3 buttons providing very easy access to all stances. Prior to 70 with the macro discussed, if a mob loses aggro from you to a ranged dps/healer and you don't pick up that taunt quick enough, all you need to do is hit that macro twice, it will put you into zerker stance -> intercept. Then you can hit zerker rage for that rage boost after the stun and the mob hits you, switch to def stance and taunt > revenge/shieldSlam/spam sunder w/e is available to you as per your rage count.
    All taunts work the same way. So in that situation with your wife(if you weren't afk of course) letting her know to stop the aoe, then challanging shout, then Tclap/demo shout and start in on a skull works well.
    I level'd my warrior with my wife's pally to the 60's, then she actually changed to a priest and shadow spec'd to 60 and we arms war/holy priest aoe grinded from 60-70. I always kept that sword and board along with a few good stam/prot pieces in my inventory and had np tanking instances for us. Just take control of the leadership position, mark targets, discuss CC and kill order with the group thoroughly, and you'll never have problems unless they don't speak english or are 8 years old(which happens entirely too often unfortunatly).

    Best wishes

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    Y'know that raises a good point about tanking. You really need to organise your keyboard in a way that suits your playstyle, and maximises your efficiency.

    like the above poster i also have my stances macro'ed, but i bound mine to my mousewheel instead.I also have a couple skills like devastate bound to mouse buttons, so you need to experiment a bit and find a set up that suits you. I use way more keybinds, and a couple macroes(like the stance dance fear break,) on my tank, I dont bother with any on my other toons. careful if oyu bind stuff to your mouse tho, cus if you are in vent you can be accused of being a clicker.(i guess I am, but i am not clicking over buttons on my interface )

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    Quote Originally Posted by Verenyn View Post
    Warrior tanks who say you should be able to tank 5 or more mobs is exaggerating. 4 is your limit due to Tunderclap (even that requires Improved TC). 5 mobs mean one will have to get ignored by TC, 6 mean two will have to get ignored and so forth. Usually 5 and more is doable only when most of your group is dead (only you and healer). I remember tanking 7 mobs (treants near the tree boss) in Dire Maul once but that was like 2 years ago (a few months after WoW went live) so it's definetly doable but such moments will be rare.
    If your group is disciplined it works fine. Thunderclap is nice to hold up to 4 mobs but pre BC there was no TC in defstance. Nevertheless warriors where able to hold aggro on 4+ mobs. You just have to do more switching and your DDs have to be more careful.

    A proposal on key bindings: I bound stances to my mouse thumb buttons. I would go insane without zooming in/out with my mouse wheel.
    Mousewheel click and 2 other mouse buttons are bound to stance specific actions, too.
    All other skills are bound to ^,1-6, q,e r, t, f,g y,x,c,v, alt+a,w,^ (on a qwertz keyboard). Frequently used skills at good reachable keys.
    This way I can combine both mouse and keyboard to move and do my skills, which works really well for me.

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    Regarding key bindings: Most of the time I'm playing WoW on my notebook. (Just got a new one, and it's awesome: graphics, FPS, etc.) The only problem I have found is with my new mouse. The side buttons that are normally "Mouse Button 4" and "Mouse Button 5" respectively, are "Right Arrow" and "Left Arrow." I'm trying to find a way to change this.

    Random Note: I have a friend that doesn't use the mouse, but has tons of keybinds. Though he plays cross-haned. That is to say, he has his right hand on action bar numners, and his left on the lower-right arrow keys. It's awesome to watch, and he is amazingly efficient.

    My stances are bound to Ctrl+Z, X, and C. It's not a far reach and I'm comfortable with it. I used 1-5 on the action bar most prominently, and I'm not that comfortable using "Shift+" for other abilities in a quick situation. I'm looking for a way to change the way the mouse buttons are recognized so that I can use "Mouse Button 4 + 1-5" and the like. That will still give me all the flexability of moving with the mouse, zoom capabilities, and my abilties at my disposal.

    Still, I need to look at the macros and Action Bar mods. I've never really used anything that greatly modified the UI. I'm going to have to check that forum and look again.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Verenyn View Post
    Warrior tanks who say you should be able to tank 5 or more mobs is exaggerating. 4 is your limit due to Tunderclap (even that requires Improved TC). 5 mobs mean one will have to get ignored by TC, 6 mean two will have to get ignored and so forth. Usually 5 and more is doable only when most of your group is dead (only you and healer). I remember tanking 7 mobs (treants near the tree boss) in Dire Maul once but that was like 2 years ago (a few months after WoW went live) so it's definetly doable but such moments will be rare.
    No, we're not exaggerating -- we just have the practice to do it. A druid's Swipe only hits three mobs: Does this mean a druid cannot hold more than three? No, they hit different sets of targets with Swipe.

    Similarly, you can tag more than four mobs, by moving around, using Thunder Clap (which, indeed, should be improved with talents), and complementing it with Whirlwind and Cleave, if necessary. You should not really retarget a lot, because that diminishes your single target threat (except to use retargeting as insurance to make sure that a dangerous mob doesn't get loose if the mage or warlock suddenly feels compelled to spam AEs).

    It's not a new concept, either. There were plenty of 5+ pulls in pre-expansion instances.

    Why should you learn to do it? Because it gives you more flexibility. You'll be less dependent on CC for your group makeup in 5-mans and heroics; your guild won't get a panic attack because the paladin tank can't make it to Zul'Aman, because they can trust you to hold the larger crowds; and finally, less CC makes for speedier runs and better rage generation once you have the gear to be able to do it.

    There's also the issue of pride: Unless the game mechanics make it absolutely impossible -- and they don't do that -- I don't see why one should back down from a bit of a challenge. Yes, it requires some practice to become good at it -- especially if you have mobs in the crowd that fear or other annoyances -- and to have a good feeling for healing threat, but it is both worth it, and the adrenaline rush can be quite a bit of fun.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Verenyn View Post
    Warrior tanks who say you should be able to tank 5 or more mobs is exaggerating. 4 is your limit due to Tunderclap (even that requires Improved TC). 5 mobs mean one will have to get ignored by TC, 6 mean two will have to get ignored and so forth. Usually 5 and more is doable only when most of your group is dead (only you and healer). I remember tanking 7 mobs (treants near the tree boss) in Dire Maul once but that was like 2 years ago (a few months after WoW went live) so it's definetly doable but such moments will be rare.
    I can tank 5-6 mobs without fail, every time -- as long as my DPS is wise enough to only attack my target. Improved Thunderclap is more than enough to hold aggro off of the healer, and if you constantly shift your position (a step back, a step forward), it will hit different targets every time. Coupled with Shield Slams and Devastates and Cleaves on your focused target, holding aggro even against groups larger than four is doable. It's not even that hard, as long as you don't try to go overboard. (6-7 is possible, 8 is stretching it.) Also, your healer has to actually be able to keep you alive.

    Any amount of AoE will ruin it, though.
    風林火山陰雷

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    Dovie'andi se tovya sagain - it's time to roll the dice

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arlana View Post
    All taunts work the same way. So in that situation with your wife(if you weren't afk of course) letting her know to stop the aoe, then challanging shout, then Tclap/demo shout and start in on a skull works well.
    Just wanted to note that this is not the case. There are 3 taunts in the game that actually give you threat as high as the current target AND force the mob to target you, one each for druid pally and warrior.

    Challenging Shout, Challenging Roar, and Mocking Blow ONLY force the mob to target you for 6 seconds, after which they will return to their original target unless you have caused enough threat to outdo all the damage done.

    Thus those moves will not save a crazy AOEer, all they will do is give the healer 6 seconds to catch up on heals, at which point all the mobs will switch back to whoever has highest threat... most likely whoever was AOEing.

  20. #20
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    It's perfectly possible to hold 4+ mobs as a warrior. The most important thing I have to do is get them arranged in front of me. After the initial threat application of Tclap, I have a few seconds to Devastate the couple mobs that didn't get Tclapped.

    What messes me up mostly is someone pulling aggro, then I have to run to get it back, and the nice orderly setup degenerates into a frenzy of spamming threat on every target I can get my hands on and hoping that I don't miss one by chance.
    "I played hard to avoid mistakes, but now I can play hard to capitalize on opportunities." -Arold, on the 3.0 Protection Warrior.

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