1% Expertise equates to 2% Hit? I don't see how...

[Arideni]

I don't fully understand the concept I read earlier...someone said that 1% of expertise is akin to having 2% of hit...

I'm thinking Miss, dodge & parry all three...just these three alone, reduce that "2%" to 1.32%...

Nevermind whatever else could happen along the way.

Even then not all players are attacking from the front (for example, a rogue will not even gain the -parry benefits).

I don't really think I'm mistaken in pointing out this fact, but if Expertise was actual +hit then why not just combine the effects? =/ It seems to me, it's more accurate to say that Expertise is related to +hit in that it works against the monster, instead of for you.

Any thoughts on the matter?

[Narshe]

+hit reduces your miss rate, which at lvl73 enemies is around 9%
+expertise reduces the chance the enemy has to dodge and parry your attacks, lvl73 enemies stand around 6% dodge and 14% parry (maybe less parry but I can't check atm :P)

If you increase your +hit by 1% you will reduce the chance of failing attacks due to missing the boss.
If you increase your +expertise by 1% you will reduce the chance of failing attacks due to the boss dodgeing AND parrying your attack, that's why it's said that +1% expertise is similar to +2% of hit, because it reduces both dodge and parry at the same time.

Why don't include hit and expertise under the same name? Because making the boss avoid less attacks is not the same that making your character to miss less often. Increasing one of those ratings have, in fact, the same impact in your TPS or DPS but it's not the same. The better example of this is what happens when bosses parries one of your attacks.

[Taelas]

1% Expertise is not equivalent to 2% hit. It simply has the same effect on your chance to hit the boss, which is why the comparison was made.

[Aelvain]

So I didn't read whatever you're referencing, but I'm pretty sure you (and others posting here) are just misunderstanding.

15.8 hit rating = 1% increased chance to hit
15.8 expertise rating = +4 expertise = 1% decrease to dodges, 1% decrease to parries

So for a tank, expertise rating is literally twice as much of a threat increase for the same cost. For a dps class they're pretty much the same, expertise possibly being slightly better as you still see the occasional parry.

[Arideni]

OK, I think Norrath was the only one who really understood what I meant. I know what hit & expertise do, but I didn't believe in the concept that they're the same.

I do understand they offer roughly the same benefit, but I didn't think it was wise to compare the two...

If we embrace that idea, then people will take it out of context & ultimately lead to a large misunderstanding of how they work.

So in that sense, maybe we should be careful how we phrase these things as to someone who doesn't quite grasp the concept of expertise could very easily be confused (which only spreads misinformation).
That would be detrimental to the good work people are doing to help the community!

[Horgar]

I haven't seen anyone say it's exactly the same. It's a matter of measuring worth.

In a threat set 1% expertise is worth 2% hit because the 1% expertise removes 2% worth of avoidance from the table and so does 2% hit.

Assuming you aren't at the caps for either then you can use that to compare threat pieces. Like with most things the value changes for one as the other increases (and when you remove that type of avoidance from the table completely the stat becomes worthless beyond that point... aka ~490 defense and crits).

[Taelas]

If we embrace that idea, then people will take it out of context & ultimately lead to a large misunderstanding of how they work.

Perhaps. But that's just how things are -- people will always take snippets out of context. I'm not going to limit myself to things that are always understood even out of context; that's just too much work.

[Aelvain]

Don't think about the two stats like "+hit works for you and expertise works against the monster." Think of them in terms of the combat table - hit removes misses, expertise removes dodges and parries. I'm not sure why you wouldn't compare the two - even for a dps class, expertise is just as good as hit assuming you're not capped. Both remove avoidance from the combat table, one removes more.

[Ceravantes]

Don't think about the two stats like "+hit works for you and expertise works against the monster." Think of them in terms of the combat table - hit removes misses, expertise removes dodges and parries. I'm not sure why you wouldn't compare the two - even for a dps class, expertise is just as good as hit assuming you're not capped. Both remove avoidance from the combat table, one removes more.

Thee additional bonus of parry is generally irrelevant for a dps class when looking at raid settings, which is where these stats become more prevalent. Generally speaking a DPS class would gain the dodge but not parry reduction since they should always attack form behind.

[Arideni]

Don't think about the two stats like "+hit works for you and expertise works against the monster." Think of them in terms of the combat table - hit removes misses, expertise removes dodges and parries. I'm not sure why you wouldn't compare the two - even for a dps class, expertise is just as good as hit assuming you're not capped. Both remove avoidance from the combat table, one removes more.

This combined with another couple things really got me thinking & I realize perhaps I wasn't looking at it in the same way...I get it now, though!

Aelvain, your comment really made it clear how similar they can be, though they work in different ways.

I would like to say "Thank you," to everyone, really got me thinking more along the lines of the combat table instead of semantics.

I am curious, is there a reasonable way to combine the two?

For example, dodge, parry & block are all forms of avoidance and can be slumped into one category.

[Taelas]

Yes -- "hit". It's silly, as there's already a stat that's called this, but it is really what they do. Hit rating removes miss, Expertise removes dodge and parry -- thus both increase your chance to hit.

[Rak]

Block is not avoidance.

Expertise is also different than hit in an abstract way for dps classes because once you reach the hit cap (which many rogues will do around tier 5 content), expertise will still increase how many of your attacks land.