Game design theory discussion

[pvrhye]

This thread is about discussing design theory and how it relates specifically to things within World of Warcraft. This thread isn't really intended towards any change, but simply an outlet to entertain ourselves with some critical thinking and play the role of developers. I stress that this isn't a thread to vent frustrations, although if they do exist feel free to give the "why" to keep things in an academic tone. The topics are in fact simply a McGuffin to facilitate a narrowed specific discourse.

The topic for the moment will be Endless Rage. I was originally going to reply with this to a thread on the afore mentioned skill, but since tankspot is much less the seething cesspool that the normal forums are, I figured this would be a more entertaining discussion.

This is what I thought I'd like.

Endless Rage
Decreases the cost of all offensive abilities by 25%

In theory, this is of more immediate use to a warrior than +25% rage while basically accomplishing the same effect. The difference is that this means an IMMEDIATE MS after a charge (not waiting for the white hit would be huge vs mages and hunters).

Sadly that's about the only specific benefit I could come up with because my later math showed a flaw in my idea. Warrior abilities tend to come in increments of 5. 25% reduction only truly accomplishes reducing a cost to just above 10 rage, so there would be no stance swapping goodness w/o a lucky AM tick.

On the other hand, this idea is quite in line with what I think Blizzard felt was the original purpose of endless rage. I feel they were working on the fallacy that a increase in rage results in a linear increase in damage. So, in their mind, a 25% rage increase would result in 25% more damage. If you account for gaps in flurry this would make it a rough equivalent for damage output warranting it's inclusion at a reduced cost. Sure a flat cost reduction as in Focused Rage would be more effective (to the tune of -5 rage for 15 rage skills), but it would both have to be more potent than the prot equivalent and would homogenize the trees in an unpleasant way.. mind you it's a way I think they've already travelled with giving 2 trees increased rage production and one rage reduction... Clearly they don't like the pricing of thier skills already.

[ScientificLee]

I agree with your assessment.

Everything costing 25% less vs gaining 25% more rage is, even on the most superficial analysis, not even close. It clearly favors rage generation. Moreover, it presents huge scaling issues. Technically, the amount of rage you can gain per event is 100% of your rage bar. This is not limited by GCD and swing timer since you can get rage for taking damage. Spending rage is limited by GCD and swing timers. Currently the max rage discount you can get is about 8.

The increase of rage generation is a huge balance issue for Blizzard. Rage is actually the direct opposite of mana. That is why Pallies make better trash tanks while warriors, in general, make better boss tanks. This is what makes warriors hard to balance even though pre-bc every encounter was created from the warriors prospective first.

Anyone who has lvled a warrior to the top of the food chain knows the pains and rewards. You are gear dependent. You suck until you get the gear. You can't do anything by yourself. Well, anything worthwhile at least. But once you get there - you are serious business.

[Horacio]

I am not very experienced with Arms having been a tank for my entire Wow career and only now working on Fury.

In a PvE setting, a 25% reduction in rage cost seems a little more valuable, and the savings should add up over the course of an encounter. More white swings turned into HS rage dumps. I don't know the math but I'm sure it could be done; rage generation calculated over time would show you over the course of a fight how often you would be able to que HS and with the rage savings, this would surely increase, assuming MS/WW/Slam whatever on a regular attack cycle.

As a raid tank I am constantly hammering HS/Dev so long as it doesn't effect my cycle. If with high end gear as an MS spec you're able to maintain HS spam with your cycle, then what good is 25% savings? I don't know because I don't know what rage generation is like for those guys. In my fury experiment, I have found I am hardly ever starved for rage but then, I am just working on mobs out in the world what are hitting back, not being tanked. But if you are jacking up a raid boss w/ a T6 weapon, 2.5K AP buffed and 30% crit, maybe you're swimming in rage already. /shrug

[Seth]

I'd also like to point out that 25% more rage is less effective than 25% reduced costs just in numbers.

1.25 rage / 1.00 (normal) cost = 1.25
1.00 (normal) rage / .75 reduced cost = 1.33

You'd have to talk about it against a 20% cost reduction if you even want to compare.

[Taelas]

20% cost reduction also produces cleaner numbers. As you said, rage costs come in increments of 5 -- a 20% rage reduction will result in whole points for any increment of 5. No messy fractions. As long as Endless Rage applies first, naturally.

[ScientificLee]

Seth, I must be looking at the problem incorrectly because I don't see it that way.

1) you gain rage from a getting hit (no cost), white dmg (no cost), as well as most yellow dmg. You are not capped by GCD etc.

2) you can only benefit from discount rage when you use an ability and have the rage to use an ability.

[Taelas]

Eh -- yellow attacks do not generate rage. Ever.

Seth is talking about simple math, though.

Increasing something by 25% amounts to less than decreasing something by 25% does.

100 / 1.25 = 80
100 / 1.33 = 75

[ScientificLee]

Eh -- yellow attacks do not generate rage. Ever.

Poorly written on my part. I was thinking along the lines where I spam hamstring to trigger WF to get extra white swing to get more rage.
I could be wrong about that generating rage though.

Either way thanks for pointing out my mistakes.

[Taelas]

Well, you'd be wrong about Hamstring proccing Windfury. It doesn't, not anymore.

[ScientificLee]

Well, you'd be wrong about Hamstring proccing Windfury. It doesn't, not anymore.

WTF they took that out? When?

[Taelas]

WTF they took that out? When?

Hotfix a good while back. They changed Windfury to only proc on weapon swings.

Well, technically white attacks, but on-next-swing attacks proc it as well. I suppose Sword Spec procs it, even though it's not technically a swing.

[ScientificLee]

Good to know cause I'm switching from tanking to DPS soon.

Despite all my mistakes... I still think an ability that allows us to generate 25% more rage every time we generate rage is more useful than an ability that reduces the cost of our offensive ability by 25%.

*Edit. I read the initial question incorrectly.

[kryonik]

I've heard rumblings that from a PvP aspect, Endless Rage might be a lot better than people originally thought. The feeling is that the rage bonus gained is much more significant than the gains you would get from any of the Fury talents (PH, Flurry, etc) that you would be normally be getting.

Here's a thread on a 45/5/11 build. Initial report on 45/5/11 baller spec - Arena Junkies Forums

Some people don't think it's viable because of the loss of Piercing Howl, others are singing it's praise (more rage + TM + Last Stand).

Further testing maybe?

EDIT: On the topic of which is better, +rage generated or -rage cost, how would Focused Rage fit into the equation? Would you rather have all your abilities cost 3 less rage or have you generate 3 more rage on every white attack? As it stands now, Focused Rage is a very powerful talent. Would it be less/more powerful if it was reversed?

[Ekarderif]

1. My weapon speed is 1.6. GCD is 1.5.
2. Heroic Strike costs me 9 rage + all my white rage currently. This would increase to 12 rage and prevent rage gain from the new talent, a 6 rage difference.
3. Having lower costs allows for more versatility:
10 rage - bloodrage
1 rage - devastate
7 rage - white
1 rage - bloodrage
0 rage - shield bash

versus

10 rage - bloodrage
19 rage - white
7 rage - devastate
8 rage - bloodrage
<crap I don't have enough rage for shield bash>

So yeah, I would hate it if it was reversed.

[Taelas]

EDIT: On the topic of which is better, +rage generated or -rage cost, how would Focused Rage fit into the equation? Would you rather have all your abilities cost 3 less rage or have you generate 3 more rage on every white attack? As it stands now, Focused Rage is a very powerful talent. Would it be less/more powerful if it was reversed?

I far prefer it as it stands, especially since my rage generation when attacking is awful already. I would quite simply not get enough rage to allow me to use my abilities as often as I do now.

[pvrhye]

EDIT: On the topic of which is better, +rage generated or -rage cost, how would Focused Rage fit into the equation? Would you rather have all your abilities cost 3 less rage or have you generate 3 more rage on every white attack? As it stands now, Focused Rage is a very powerful talent. Would it be less/more powerful if it was reversed?

+ generation would be way weaker. -Cost benefits your rage from both incoming and outgoing damage.

[pvrhye]

Posting again in my older thread to see if I can get my new signature to work.