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Thread: Why is it good to be Passively Uncrushable?

  1. #1
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    Why is it good to be Passively Uncrushable?

    Passive Uncrushable is all the rage these days and I must agree that I love the concept too, but it got me to thinking... have we been thinking?

    The concept: You never have to use shield block again!
    The reward: You don't get crushing blowed!

    When does this help really help though? To put it more clearly...
    What fights make it worth the significant Armor/Stamina/Threat loss in order to utilize such a set?

    Here is a boss list:

    ZA
    Nalorakk
    Akil'zon
    Jan'alai
    Halazzi
    Hex Lord Malacrass
    Zul'jin

    Tempest Keep
    Al'ar
    Void Reaver
    High Astromancer Solarian
    Kael'thas Sunstrider

    SSC
    Hydross the Unstable
    The Lurker Below
    Leotheras the Blind
    Fathom-Lord Karathress
    Morogrim Tidewalker
    Lady Vashj

    Black Temple
    High Warlord Naj'entus
    Supremus
    Shade of Akama
    Teron Gorefiend
    Gurtogg Bloodboil
    Reliquary of Souls
    Mother Shahraz
    Illidari Council
    Illidan Stormrage

    Hyjal
    Rage Winterchill
    Anetheron
    Kaz'rogal
    Azgalor
    Archimonde

    (I haven't listed Kara because frankly if it's only good for Kara then it's kinda a waste of time since you basically in ZA/SSC/TK loot to make a decent set)
    Last edited by veneretio; 12-06-2007 at 05:01 PM.

  2. #2
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    My guild has 2 Warriors, 2 Paladins, and me, the Druid, as tanks. Most of the time our warriors die, you read the death report in recount and it says something like
    -4.50 {Warrior} gains Shield Block.
    -1.50 Shield Block fades from {Warrior}
    -0.30 {Boss} crushes {Warrior} for {too much}
    -0.00 {Warrior} dies.
    That, I think, is the appeal to passive uncrushability. Becoming passively uncrushable against dual-weilders seems like an obvious choice to me. Going for passively uncrushable against others I do not think is neccessary. On bosses who are likely to crush, but do not dual-weild, you can have a Paladin or Druid do the tanking.

  3. #3
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    Yes, but what fights in particular do you believe it's useful for? (example: Prince... although I'd hope a set comprised of t5 items would give us some edge against more than t4 bosses)

  4. #4
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    What fights make it worth the significant Armor/Stamina/Threat loss in order to utilize such a set?
    Prince malch is my goal right now to tank through easily. I'm working with mostly cruddy gear cuz I have horrible luck with kara drops, though. I can get 15k armor and 13k health even though I only have a few of the kara drops. I am building a set around passive uncrush (to dw mobs only) though to test that out... the avoidance will help with sunders *and* crushes.


    The only other reason would be so we could be lazy...

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Horgar View Post
    The only other reason would be so we could be lazy...
    See and this is what I'm talking about... is this the only reason?

    The one firm truth I know about Passive Uncrushable is that if you aren't clearing ZA (or better content), it's not worth it because ZA gear is what you need in order to not make a terrible Passive Uncrushable set.

    Is Passive Uncrushable just like the Maximum Block Value set? Is it just something to brag about with your tank friends? Is it just something to accomplish for the sake of saying you've accomplished something....

    or does it matter?

    I hope it does, but I'm still waiting for practical applications.

  6. #6
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    There's a couple of benefits:
    1) Crush-immune no matter how fast the boss swings or how many mobs you are holding, which is a reduction in spike damage.
    2) Since every attack made on you will be at worst a block, block value becomes a very effective means of predictably reducing incoming damage.
    3) Farming becomes trivial when melee mobs can't hurt you (full block every swing).

    That's not all of it, but those are the major points. Most of the time, you won't want to wear your passive set (opting instead for more threat generation or effective health). However, there are times that it becomes really handy to have one.

  7. #7
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    Couple things.

    1) Not having to use Shield Block saves rage. More rage means more threat. The question here however, how much NET rage do you actually gain? You won't have to use Shield Block, but you will have such a high amount of avoidance, you won't be getting hit half the time, thus half the time you will have no rage incoming.
    2) I would imagine that even if you were in the T6 passively uncrushable set, you would be sacrificing a significant amount of stamina in order to do so. I saw an Armory today of someone in a more or less, passively uncrushable set (he was in the vicinity of 95% total block/dodge/parry/miss unbuffed) however he only had ~15k hp unbuffed.
    3) You will, for the most part, also be trading threat generating stats such as block value, hit rating, expertise, etc, in order to do so that your threat might also suffer. That's just the nature of item stat budgeting.

  8. #8
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    I can see it for bosses in Kara and ZA. But thereafter the obvious loss of stamina and armor will make bosses harder to tank as damage still comes in and in huge amounts at times. You will still have to have the amount of stamina to withstand a significant blow and not be insta-killed.

    Bosses like Archimonde and Illidan don't crush but I can assure you it will very hard to find a tank that is succesfully tanking them in an uncrushable set that isnt full T6 and gemmed appropiately.

  9. #9
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    I understand the benefits, but solutions without problems aren't solutions really at all. I've editted my orginial post to include a boss list.

    What I'm curious about is what actual boss fights is a Passive Uncrushable set worth it for?

  10. #10
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    Any boss that hits faster than once every 2.5 seconds.
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  11. #11
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    Can't think of any boss where an uncrushable set would be a big enough advantage, hitting shield block once every 5 sec isn't really that hard, and isn't even needed on some bosses.

  12. #12
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    I like to use uncrushable because I can.

    ZA
    Nalorakk - sometimes, EH set works too.
    Akil'zon - yes
    Jan'alai - yes
    Halazzi - sometimes, EH set works too. I have also used avoidance.
    Hex Lord Malacrass - shrug
    Zul'jin - shrug

    Tempest Keep
    Al'ar - yes
    Void Reaver - no, use threat set
    High Astromancer Solarian - no, it doesn't matter
    Kael'thas Sunstrider - shrug, probably not

    SSC
    Hydross the Unstable - no, use resist set.
    The Lurker Below - yes, doesn't matter much.
    Leotheras the Blind - no, use threat set
    Fathom-Lord Karathress - haven't tried, use EH set.
    Morogrim Tidewalker - haven't tried, use EH set.
    Lady Vashj - no, use EH set.

    Black Temple - Uhm.. I'll let you know when my guild decides to kill Kael.
    High Warlord Naj'entus
    Supremus
    Shade of Akama
    Teron Gorefiend
    Gurtogg Bloodboil
    Reliquary of Souls
    Mother Shahraz
    Illidari Council
    Illidan Stormrage

    Hyjal
    Rage Winterchill
    Anetheron
    Kaz'rogal
    Azgalor
    Archimonde

  13. #13
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    I'll make my own list

    ZA - No real opinion since my gear is a bit overkill (mostly t6)
    Nalorakk
    Akil'zon
    Jan'alai
    Halazzi
    Hex Lord Malacrass
    Zul'jin

    Tempest Keep
    Al'ar - Uncrushable, but hitting shield block every cd works just fine, his crushes are quite weak
    Void Reaver - Threat
    High Astromancer Solarian - Threat
    Kael'thas Sunstrider - Pure sta if you're tanking Kael'thas, threat for the rest

    SSC
    Hydross the Unstable - Resistance
    The Lurker Below - Doesn't really matter
    Leotheras the Blind - Threat
    Fathom-Lord Karathress - EH, u'll get stunned and u don't want to die
    Morogrim Tidewalker - EH with a bit avoidance, he hits like a truck and u will get healed alot
    Lady Vashj - She doesn't hit very hard so threat with a bit avoidance for the Nagas in p2 and to shorten p3

    Black Temple
    High Warlord Naj'entus - hits slow and hard, so EH
    Supremus - Threat since he resets aggro after each kite phase
    Shade of Akama - Threat, u're only tanking normal mobs and those can't crush anyway
    Teron Gorefiend - He hits slow and even harder then Naj'entus, so EH
    Gurtogg Bloodboil - Threat but don't forget your stamina
    Reliquary of Souls - Threat since it's a dps race and it doesn't hit very hard
    Mother Shahraz - Can't crush but does alot of dmg, so EH with a bit of avoidance
    Illidari Council - EH if u're tanking the paladin, he hits slow and hard and can't crush, dunno about the rest
    Illidan Stormrage - Can't crush, avoidance with high stamina works great for his enrages in the last phase

    Hyjal
    Rage Winterchill - Threat, hit's like a baby and is casting alot
    Anetheron - Could maybe (that's a big maybe btw) use an uncrushable set here, FR if u're tanking the Elementals
    Kaz'rogal - He stuns so EH
    Azgalor - He hits slow and hard and silences, so avoidance with high stamina works great
    Archimonde - Can't crush, avoidance with high stamina for when your healers is feared

    That's mostly how I gear for the bosses, 1 maybe (another big maybe) 2 bosses where I'd rather take an uncrushable set then my usual EH/avoidance sets.

  14. #14
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    Nalorakk can't crush, neither can Halazzi. Using uncrushable sets on them is kinda pointless.
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  15. #15
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    Except for the fact that every attack will be blocked for 600 damage.

  16. #16
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    My planned uncrushable gear have less parry and dodge than my current gear. So saying that an uncrushable gear have more avoidance than regular gear is not right. Uncrushable gears usually use a lot of block rating. Blocks gives u rage both from the unblocked damage and from the protection talent (pallies also get threat). The good thing about having an uncrushable gear is that there won't be any normal hits neither crushings. That is not only good for reducing spike damage, but it also gives A LOT mitigation.
    You could argue with me: you will lose too much threat/ EH. But in my current gear I have enough EH for every boss in the current game, and I never had problems with aggro so.... why not aim for an uncrushable gear? Even for those bosses that doesn't crush, it's still mitigation, and probably more rage efficiency as you won't have to "lose" 10 rage each 5 seconds (or 7, I can't remember if SB gets -3 focused rage reduction).

    In summary, TBC raiding is easy. 9/10 encounters can be summarized with 1 phrase. Stay out of the fucking fire.
    Panda Cub with a Gnome pet!

  17. #17
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    I'd use passive uncrush so I can be lazy on Tidewalker and give the healers a break. It's easier to get passive uncrush against Leotheras because he dual wields, sure, but it is useful there for not worrying at all about shield block while running around after him. Since Al'ar is a taunt fight, it'd be a convenience if you wanted it. Not for Void Reaver since having the option of taking the occasional crush is good for your threat output. Bosses that don't crush - you'll still be at an absurdly high block chance.

    There's nothing wrong with a passive uncrushable set; I'm working on one myself. It's just another tool in your arsenal. Having a passive uncrushable set that is going to be what you always wear would be just as silly as always wearing your avoidance, block, or max EH set.

    I don't understand the whole stigma attached to passive uncrushability. Sure, passive uncrush is a mix of gear tradeoffs. So is every other gear set you put together. Sure it will be a lower unbuffed health than a full EH set. If you have no chance to take crushes, the maximum EH requirement for the fight went down.

    Edit: There's also the fish eye lens effect. I know that I can't conceive of why Karazhan could possibly be hard as I remember it being at first. Same thing will happen to me once I'm in T6 looking back on SSC, I am sure. It's easy to say passive uncrush is useless when you outgear the places it'd be useful. Yeah, yeah, blah, blah, passive uncrush before t6 is a sin. You didn't have ZA.

  18. #18
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    Good point Narshe. At 97%, I'm at 44% block, 22% dodge, 18% parry, the rest miss. The remaining pieces I need are from ZA, which are fortified with block rating (and a bunch of stamina), not so much avoidance.

  19. #19
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    Ya I'm sure its going to be useful Satrina (part of the reason I made this thread is I wanted to find more on the topic to write about it), but I just feel that a few too many people seem to be making this big deal out of going for passive uncrushable when they've just killed Curator. (obvious exaggeration, but you get the point)

  20. #20
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    Excellent point - the zealous passive uncrush crowd is about as bad as the zealous anti-passive uncrush crowd.

    I definitely understand your exaggeration =) Realistic passive uncrush is still beyond Karazhan, absolutely. It's not so far past Karazhan as some people still seem to think, now that ZA is here.

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