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Thread: Heroic 5-Man requirements

  1. #1

    Heroic 5-Man requirements

    What are requirements for each class to run 5-man heroics?

    Warrior Tank: Def 490 for bosses, 12k unbuffed HPs.

    What about other classes? You can leave our ret pallies and dps warriors cause I usually never allow them to come along unless they are guild mates or friends.
    I'm the guy that does his job. You must be the other guy.

  2. #2
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    Know what CC is and understand how to avoid breaking it while also reapplying it. Also, know how to focus fire. Skill matters more than gear in heroics for dps.
    [2-07-08 08:57 AM] Enelrad: hahaha, that and you're ugly! Ugly tanks tank better
    [3-19-08 02:23 PM] Enelrad: Im really a 12 yr old boy from GA
    Notice: You are currently banned from the shoutbox.

  3. #3
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    Welcome to the hell where honored people do heroics.

  4. #4
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    yeah... i ran underbog the other day and out-dpsed the enhancement shaman in the group... group make up isnt that important as long as everyone knows what they are doing and you have reliable CC options. the more gear you get the easier it gets also, just like any other tanking situation. i personally have no problems with ret paladins or dps warriors in the group as long as they know they might have to put on a shield every now and then and OT because they are part of our CC options.

  5. #5
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    Before I group up with someone, I armory them to see if they're Revered or not. If not, I keep searching.

    Lowering the requirements for Heroics was a huge mistake and has already cost me more in repair costs in ONE WEEK than I've spent in the past MONTH pre-2.3. Allowing people who are obviously undergeared and/or underskilled entrance into Heroics is beyond the ken of mortal understanding, but Blizz is at the helm... next they'll just remove the requirements alltogether... but the damage is already done.

    Anyway, to be a little more on-topic: You need at LEAST 12.5k health and armor to walk into a Heroic and expect to survive. Don't even attempt it if you don't meet this benchmark. You'll wipe many times, and your party members will probably forego any future reference of association to your toon's name. You might as well walk in naked with only a 2H - you'll have about the same odds of survival.

    Learn what classes have which kinds of CC - some are vastly more useful than others. (Sheep > Sap in general, for example, but in certain circumstances these rules change. Be aware of these changes!) Make sure you set your marks (and your party is aware of HOW you mark), and /kick anyone who doesn't follow your lead. A rogue party member (not the class, but a rebel - lol) can lead to quick wipes in even the most simple of instances.

    KNOW YOUR LIMITS, and always uphold the glory of tankdom. It is the unparalleled apex of acheivement in this game, the tantric climax to the orgy of mayhem we sift thru in our search for the next challenge to overcome.

  6. #6
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    That's pretty dumb Rad. I only got my key the hard way with one faction. Yet I'm 12.5 unbuffed and Kara ready. If you go thru the trouble of armorying them why not look at their GEAR instead of their REP?

  7. #7
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    Also, It could be an Alt of somebody as well. My priest is revered with precisly ZERO factions at the moment, but is better geared than most people who do PuG's because i have spent the effort getting the best possible gear i can get.

  8. #8
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    I'm a hair shy of that 12k unbuffed hps benchmark and I have never had that much trouble tanking em.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leytur View Post
    That's pretty dumb Rad. I only got my key the hard way with one faction. Yet I'm 12.5 unbuffed and Kara ready. If you go thru the trouble of armorying them why not look at their GEAR instead of their REP?
    I think what Rad is saying, is that when the requirement was revered; you had to have run the instance quite a few times to get to revered and thus keyed. With the honored requirement, I've found myself grouped with people to run a heroic who have not ever run the instance. The problem here isn't so much gear, but the lack of familiarity and practice with the instance.

  10. #10
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    Precisely, Rashul. Glancing at the Reputation status of someone gives another player a good idea of how familiar said player is with an instance. Gear is always checked, regardless, but Reputation has become the default "first glance" stat for me.

  11. #11
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    ... that still doesn't make sense.

    Norrath was my third character to hit 70. I did NOT go through with the hassle to get him Revered; I know all the instances by heart.

    Even then, there are people every day who go into instances they've never been to before and do just fine. Why is it such a big deal?

    It's a pretty damn stupid criteria. If you must check something, check their gear. Don't bother checking their rep. Their gear at least tells you whether or not it will be a waste of time prior to entering the instance. Looking at their rep won't.
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  12. #12
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    I dunno. There are plenty of tards running around with Kara/Gruul gear simply because they are in a guild that will drag them through the instance while farming BoJs, or just need a 25th to fill the roster. On the other hand, I usually stick to running heroics with guildies or people I used to level/quest/5man with, who I know can handle themselves.

  13. #13
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    Yer, I think experience is what will finish the instance, when geared. I am around 11.5k armor and 12k health, and it's doable, but I lack the knowledge of the dungeons and that is what is holding me back.

    I don't think 12.5k health and 12.5k armor is a hard and fast rule, a general rule for sure, but it will help. Actually, taking a look at your health Radhja, it is under 12.5k :P (on your sig anyway)

    I have been hassled about my dodge rating though, when it was around 16%. My dodge and parry was then around 30% total. What do you guys think of dodge/parry rating for Heroics/Karazhan ?
    Last edited by Moshzilla; 01-19-2008 at 11:06 PM. Reason: Changed dodge rating to 16%. I'm pretty sure it was at 16% when hassled

  14. #14
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    I was thinking about this whole Honored vs Revered thing and I think that if Revered was needed, someone would just farm rep on the easiest and quickest dungeon they could find for that faction, making them an expert at one dungeon and inexperienced in the rest. There is no difference. The dungeons must be learnt and whether you master them at friendly or revered, makes no difference.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moshzilla View Post
    I have been hassled about my dodge rating though, when it was around 16%. My dodge and parry was then around 30% total. What do you guys think of dodge/parry rating for Heroics/Karazhan ?
    I recommend a total avoidance of 40%+ (include miss rate, dodge, parry) for heroics and Karazhan. When healing heroics in particular, there are plenty of fights where players other than the tank will take damage from secondary attacks or AEs, and it is important to get brief breaks to patch up the other players (including yourself). And low-avoidance tanks make your life as a healer really, really stressful in heroics. Remember: You have only one healer who cannot afford to focus only on you and who can't dump heals into you without regards for overhealing.

    Even in Karazhan, where you have multiple healers, I often want a tank with at least moderate avoidance. For example, if you don't have a paladin on Moroes (or other means of removing Garrote), towards the end you'll spend half your global cooldowns tossing Renews on garroted people and can take only so much time off to heal the tank (nevermind that it really, really starts to eat into your mana pool). Curator is another example where taking less damage is more important than effective health; and to be honest, the only reason you would ever need lots of effective health is because your avoidance is so low that you're taking a truckload of damage; otherwise, it's fairly easy to keep the tank topped off.

  16. #16
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    Ok, thanks.

    Just out of curiosity, what would you class as a low avoidance tank ?
    Last edited by Moshzilla; 01-21-2008 at 09:44 PM. Reason: Added the question.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moshzilla View Post
    Ok, thanks.

    Just out of curiosity, what would you class as a low avoidance tank ?
    I'm really not that comfortable with providing absolute numbers here.

    For example, 12k health in a heroic is not good enough when you're tanking heroic Underbog Lords that can still two-shot you with that much health after a few growths.

    Similarly, you can hardly have enough avoidance for Shirrak the Dead Watcher in heroic Auchenai Crypts.

    You need to get a feeling for what gear it takes for certain types of fights, what is your best choice of damage mitigation, and most importantly understand the constraints your healer is operating under (and that again can vary by healer). And experience is the only way to learn that. Until then, the simple solution is to get the best gear (or as close to best as is reasonable) you can lay your hands on.

    Here are some challenges that healers can face in a heroic:

    Lots of secondary damage to other players (for example, Ghaz'an, Quagmirran, Rokmar the Crackler, Zereketh the Unbound, Hydromancer Thespia, Gatewatcher Gyro-kill, Talon King Ikiss, Darkweaver Syth, Nazan).
    Even more so if the healer is a common target and gets interrupted on top of havng to heal.
    A fight with a lot of movement (Hungarfen, Nethermancer Sepethrea, Talon King Ikiss).
    Fights with mobs that use mortal strike or put other constraints on healing (Temporus, Shirrak the Dead Watcher, Rokmar the Crackler, Exarch Maladaar if the healer has her soul stolen).
    Periods where you cannot heal, because you're stunned or silenced (Anzu the Ravengod, Aeonus, Murmur).

  18. #18
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    That is a tough call. You can be on an alt, and know the instance like the back of you hand on your main warrior, but it might be a little different running on your alt holy pally. One could have great gear from Kara without getting revered and one could have good blues and be revered. If you know the person and their performance, it doesn't take all purples or even all blues to run a heroic, but the better the gear the the easier the instance, and also the better people know it, the easier the instance too. Weigh the factors out and see if you have a good group for the specific instance, since they can be different.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moshzilla View Post
    I have been hassled about my dodge rating though, when it was around 16%. My dodge and parry was then around 30% total. What do you guys think of dodge/parry rating for Heroics/Karazhan ?
    Avoidance can be very helpful at times, but I would not bank your life or the life of the raid on it. Obviously the more the better, but not at the risk of losing to much health or armor. It is somewhat fight specific too. Prince you are better off having more avoidance and getting out of some of the crushing blows since your shield block CAN last longer, but if you sacrifice to much health and armor to get it, you are more likely to get that 1 bit hit and just not have the health to live through it.

  20. #20
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    Yer, now that makes some sense. I agree totally.

    So I would say the requirements would be:

    1. Experience (layout, pulls, mob skips, risky aggro areas, boss abilities and strategies)
    2. Correct group selection based on experience and perhaps the dynamic of the group. A group that are on a level is best. Some people want to rush, other people can't rush. Some people know the dungeon well. Other people don't. I find the best groups are on a level, or are willing to find a level.
    3. Gear (situational gear selection).

    And if you're a warrior, crowd control :P

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