New Initial Threat Rotation?

[Ciderhelm]

Scenario
You have 5+ Devastate, 2x Shield Slam and 2x Revenge. Organize these to provide maximum Threat output, keeping in mind that:

• Each of the first 5 Devastates will provide a Sunder Armor debuff and increase the damage of Shield Slam and Revenge;
• Normal attacks will see a damage increase withthe Sunder Armor debuff if Devastates are applied sooner;
• Devastate is assumed to be 9 rage, Shield Slam is assumed to be 17 rage, and Revenge is assumed to be 2 rage;
• Devastate has significantly increased Threat for the first five applications.

Is initial threat increased by prioritizing Devastate over other abilities?

[Satrina]

When we did Leo yesterday, I changed it up at the start of each phase between:
- Shield Slam, Revenge, Devastate...
- Shield Slam, Devastate, Revenge...
- Shield Slam, Devastate, Devastate...
- Devastate, Devastate, Shield Slam...
- Devastate, Revenge, Devastate...
- Devastate, Revenge, Shield Slam...

DPS came in without delay at the same time I did, never was in any danger of losing aggro even with an enhancement shaman. I can't say as there was any practical difference between them that I could notice.

I'm hopped on painkillers right now, so I won't be trying any mathcraft to figure out the theoretical best cycle just now I'm sure Lavina already has it done anwyay.

[thugthedum]

I'm still struggling with meat memory problems. I catch myself sundering more often than I care to admit.

It's getting better, of course.

[Gehn]

I had troubles last night in a Heroic SP pug w/ the healer grabbing agro often. My rotation is SS, Rev, Dev, Dev, repeat...

I dont know if it was my weapon or something else, but it was very rough...

[Dots]

Definitely starting with Devastate until SA is stacked 5 times, probably a Revenge in between if it lights up. It is easily good enough to hold initial aggro in 2.3 and you want the debuff up as soon as possible anyways. Devastate is also much better threat per rage than Shield Slam while you are still stacking SA, which will help at the beginning of an encounter when you might not have much rage to go around.

On threat wipes like Leo, Supremus etc where SA is already stacked five times, opening with Shield Slam is still best of course.

[Nuberino]

Not entirely related to initial threat, but if starting with Devastate is remotely close (gg if it is better) than starting with ss, the value of improved bloodrage is greatly decreased on the opening pull.

[veneretio]

Well for me I've found that I'm only using Revenge in Low Rage fights now. Otherwise it's open with Shield Slam and then just Devastate like crazy. This change definitely has put all of the old rotations out of wack.

[Sangi]

Ok Im bored on lunch I'll play with the math. I will add up a few rotations and see what we get. I will assume my stats which is a shield slam damage of 400, base devastate weapon damage of 100, a normal hit for 200 and a revenge for 300. Rage costs assumed at SS of 17, Dev at 9, SA at 9, Rev at 2 and HS at 12.

Known threat values:
Devastate ___________________________   119/134/148/162/176 (see below)
Heroic Strike _______________________   196
Revenge _____________________________   200
Shield Slam _________________________   307
Sunder Armor ________________________   301

Calculated threat before talents
Devestate ___________________________   520/570/614/663/714 
Heroic Strike _______________________   396
Revenge _____________________________   500 
Shield Slam _________________________   707
Sunder Armor ________________________   301

Old rotations
SS, Rev, SA, SA, 4 normal attacks = 707 + 500 + 301 + 301 + (4 * 200) = 2609 @ 37 rage in 6 seconds

SS, Rev, SA, SA, HS, 3 normal attacks = 707 + 500 + 301 + 301 + 396 + (3 * 200) = 2805 @ 49 rage in 6 seconds

New Rotations
SS, Rev, Dev, Dev, 4 normal attacks = 707 + 500 + 520 + 570 + (4 * 200) = 3009 @ 37 rage in 6 seconds

SS, Dev, Dev, Dev, 4 normal attacks = 707 + 520 + 570 + 614 + (4 * 200) =
3211 @ 44 rage in 6 seconds

Dev, Dev, Dev, Dev 4 normal attacks = 520 + 570 + 614 + 663 + (4 * 200) =
2367 @ 36 rage in 6 seconds

So the winner looks to be SS 3xDev but is pretty expensive ragewise. Followed by good ole SS, Rev, 2x Dev. 4x Dev looks to be much lower threatwise. But again this is all theory crafting.

[Esillymidget]

I'd still say open with a shield slam for the big thump of threat it gives even if it's threat/rage is not as high. Some dpsers can be pretty crazy.

[Nez]

I tend to still open with shield slam mostly out of habit. >< I do seem to run our of rage more often now, I guess I need to lay off the HS a little. I think its really going to depend on what your tanking ( as always ) If it is a hard hitter, Go with the SS, dev spam would be my choice. Mobs seem to stick to us like glue now, the "new" devastate is a great tool.

[Wartorn]

Your best bet is probably to do SS/Devx2/Revenge if you have a warrior OT helping you with sunders.

If you don't have an warrior OT, it's probably SS/Devx3/SS/Devx2/Revenge. I think it gives you reliable threat generation, as well as the most burst threat potential, which is critical for starting fights.

[Ciderhelm]

Ok Im bored on lunch I'll play with the math. I will add up a few rotations and see what we get. I will assume my stats which is a shield slam damage of 400, base devastate weapon damage of 100, a normal hit for 200 and a revenge for 300. Rage costs assumed at SS of 17, Dev at 9, SA at 9, Rev at 2 and HS at 12.

Known threat values:
Devastate ___________________________   119/134/148/162/176 (see below)
Heroic Strike _______________________   196
Revenge _____________________________   200
Shield Slam _________________________   307
Sunder Armor ________________________   301

Calculated threat before talents
Devestate ___________________________   520/570/614/663/714 
Heroic Strike _______________________   396
Revenge _____________________________   500 
Shield Slam _________________________   707
Sunder Armor ________________________   301

Old rotations
SS, Rev, SA, SA, 4 normal attacks = 707 + 500 + 301 + 301 + (4 * 200) = 2609 @ 37 rage in 6 seconds

SS, Rev, SA, SA, HS, 3 normal attacks = 707 + 500 + 301 + 301 + 396 + (3 * 200) = 2805 @ 49 rage in 6 seconds

New Rotations
SS, Rev, Dev, Dev, 4 normal attacks = 707 + 500 + 520 + 570 + (4 * 200) = 3009 @ 37 rage in 6 seconds

SS, Dev, Dev, Dev, 4 normal attacks = 707 + 520 + 570 + 614 + (4 * 200) =
3211 @ 44 rage in 6 seconds

Dev, Dev, Dev, Dev 4 normal attacks = 520 + 570 + 614 + 663 + (4 * 200) =
2367 @ 36 rage in 6 seconds

So the winner looks to be SS 3xDev but is pretty expensive ragewise. Followed by good ole SS, Rev, 2x Dev. 4x Dev looks to be much lower threatwise. But again this is all theory crafting.

Very nice, the numbers look solid. We'd want to expand on this to make sure that the reduction of Armor is being presented as additional damage/threat from normal attacks and shield slams.

[Kazeyonoma]

wait why is the devastate innate threat starting at 520?

301 + 119 = 420 not 520.

[Norrath]

Because it's not the innate threat he's talking about -- he's averaging Devastate hits to 100.

Though the total threat modifiers are still wrong... quick math says the following:

510 with 0 Sunders applied,
555 with 1 Sunder,
605 with 2 Sunders,
654 with 3 Sunders,
703 with 4 Sunders, and
451 with 5 Sunders.

[Dots]

Sangi, you forgot to include something like Dev, Dev, Rev, Dev. This is very vague anyways, the lower armor has quite an impact on threat generation (and of course helps raid DPS a bit).
Another good reason to open with Devastate is that you can save the 2 talent points for Improved Bloodrage.

[Ciderhelm]

I've updated the question in the original post. It is now as follows:


Scenario
You have 5+ Devastate, 2x Shield Slam and 2x Revenge. Organize these to provide maximum Threat output, keeping in mind that:

• Each of the first 5 Devastates will provide a Sunder Armor debuff and increase the damage of Shield Slam and Revenge;
• Normal attacks will see a damage increase withthe Sunder Armor debuff if Devastates are applied sooner;
• Devastate is assumed to be 9 rage, Shield Slam is assumed to be 17 rage, and Revenge is assumed to be 2 rage;
• Devastate has significantly increased Threat for the first five applications.

Is initial threat increased by prioritizing Devastate over other abilities?

[Felonys]

Interesting thread.. this is also my first post so Hi

I would open with Shield Slam, Revenge (if it's up) Dev,dev,dev,SS, (revenge if up),dev,dev, then I guess into the fight i'd queue HS/Dev and proceed to the normal rotation.

It also bring me a question. I had a discussion today with out MT (I'm OT) about the usefullness of improve sunder armor. With the new devastate change do you think it's worth it ? Personally I don't think so and I'd like input on this topic.

(Tried the search fonction.. so I might be blind and if there's another thread maybe can someone post me the link to it ? thanks )

[Ilya M]

Imp SA means cheaper devastates, cheaper devastates allow you to have more rage for shield block in low rage situations and in high rage situations, more Heroic Strkes

[Grohm]

Another factor to consider is Expertise. A parried/dodged Shield Slam hurts your threat alot especially in the beginning.
My WWS-Miss stats got me thinking about this (with 21 Expertise):
Grohm - WWS

[veneretio]

I've updated the question in the original post. It is now as follows:


Scenario
You have 5+ Devastate, 2x Shield Slam and 2x Revenge. Organize these to provide maximum Threat output, keeping in mind that:

• Each of the first 5 Devastates will provide a Sunder Armor debuff and increase the damage of Shield Slam and Revenge;
• Normal attacks will see a damage increase withthe Sunder Armor debuff if Devastates are applied sooner;
• Devastate is assumed to be 9 rage, Shield Slam is assumed to be 17 rage, and Revenge is assumed to be 2 rage;
• Devastate has significantly increased Threat for the first five applications.

Is initial threat increased by prioritizing Devastate over other abilities?

That first hit will always need to be the highest possible threat making Shield Slam always the best opening. This way you have the highest buffer from healing aggro and trigger happy dps that start immediately.

My Vote
Bosses: SS > Devastate x5 > Normal Rotation.
Trash: SS whenever its up, Revenge > Devastate when it's not.