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Thread: Protection DPS

  1. #21
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    You have a key factor missing Derrida, and that is that WW uses the global cooldown, where as HS does not. Even with the current state of Devastate at 12 rage, you can gear such that you have more rage coming in then going out.

    As your numbers do show, Devastate is the better use of the global cooldown in single target DPS situations. But at 9 rage per 1.5 seconds while both mainhand and offhand are still generating rage, you're going to need to dump the extra into more damage without compromising your DPS. This means using On Next Hit abilities like Cleave or Heroic Strike.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korga View Post
    You have a key factor missing Derrida, and that is that WW uses the global cooldown, where as HS does not. Even with the current state of Devastate at 12 rage, you can gear such that you have more rage coming in then going out.

    As your numbers do show, Devastate is the better use of the global cooldown in single target DPS situations. But at 9 rage per 1.5 seconds while both mainhand and offhand are still generating rage, you're going to need to dump the extra into more damage without compromising your DPS. This means using On Next Hit abilities like Cleave or Heroic Strike.
    No, i considered that, maybe i didnt write it explicitly. I was comparing the two as a rage dump with heroic strike costing 20 rage(11 from the lost white attack 9 from the ability) the ww as a rage dump costs 10 rage as a replacement in a cycle for devastate. If you're looking to convert rage to damage, you could use 2 ww's for every 1 heroic strike.

  3. #23
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    Ah, I've got you. Sorry if my previous post seemed confrontational. Not my intent, just typing quickly between meetings.

    I'm certainly planning on using whirlwind when DPSing and I'm curious to see how that, and the Devastate changes effect overall dps.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by derrida View Post
    No, i considered that, maybe i didnt write it explicitly. I was comparing the two as a rage dump with heroic strike costing 20 rage(11 from the lost white attack 9 from the ability) the ww as a rage dump costs 10 rage as a replacement in a cycle for devastate. If you're looking to convert rage to damage, you could use 2 ww's for every 1 heroic strike.
    Your numbers seem to be completely sound. I still think staying in Battle Stance Just Using Dev spam & Overpower whenever it comes up + HS when you have 40-50 rage will yield the best dps as a prot spec'ed warrior. Bosses dodge at least 5% of the time. Over a boss fight OP > WW for both rage and damage done (assuming you use them both everytime they are up.) So much so it warrants the 3% less crit since your proT spec'ed and not running Impale.

    Yes HS isn't the most rage efficient attack, but when you have the rage it's powerful and with a lower hit rating and dual wielding, also yields great results. Turning white attack into Yellow attacks ftw.

    Post Patch, WW will be better, but not by much.

  5. #25
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    Sorry for the delayed responses, been a bit busy:
    But in my experience Battle Stance with Overpower and Heroic strikes > Serk & WW.
    HS is available in all stances, so the better comparison is Overpower vs. Whirlwind. Overpower's great for low-rage situations, but I find that i'm rarely limited by rage when DPSing. For my situation, the threat limit is a more pressing concern than maximum DPR efficiency, so WW wins out for me. The other bonuses of Berserker Stance are also occasionally more useful than those from Battle Stance. Once again, YMMV on these, so it's up to the player to find out what's best for them.

    For me in any spec especially Fury, when threat is not an issue - 2 HS's > 1 WW for the rage cost.
    Keep in mind that Heroic Strike's true rage cost is much higher than advertised, due to preventing the MH rage gain.

    And for my current situations of DPS in Prot spec, threat is an issue. Devastate, while being excellent damage, also tacks on the extra threat. If I'm trying to work in additional HS spam, then I really have to keep an eye on my TPS, to leave room for any spikes (especially when it comes time for Execute).

    The more god-like your current MT is, the less you have to be concerned on threat. Just something to keep in mind.

    As for Rend: for an ability that takes a GCD, it delivers far too little damage over its duration, when compared to something like Devastate. I just don't bother.

    So no one uses shield slam for dps? With my BV gear I would think it would out dps my off hand. I suppose with a slow main hand this may cause rage issues
    The rage gen is the main issue; a large part of Prot DPS comes from specials, and you need the OH to generate enough rage to maintain that. You'll be very rage-starved if you try to DPS with a shield, and it will hold you back immensely. Also, wearing BV gear instead of actual DPS gear will further limit the damage of your MH attacks. Wear DPS gear for DPSing, regardless of spec. =)

  6. #26
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    All valid points. It's all moot now, the patch is here and Serk Stance with the new WW should yield your best dps when prot spec'ed.

    As to the exact dps rotation, my guess is Dev. Spam and WW everytime its up and HS's when you have > 40-50 Rage.

    But God willing, I'll continue to solely be a dps warrior :P

  7. #27
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    Here is a spreadsheat modified for a 6 devastate 1 WW cycle. It's a repost from EJ, i believe it was made by kyaska-eu.

    You'll be shocked at how prot compares to fury. I can't really say how sound the modeling methodology is, but it uses a widely used dps sheet as its basis. Its suggesting that raid buffed, i can put out 1100-1200 dps compared to 1400 in the same gear as fury. Prot dps is also very easy to play(compared to say timing slams).

    http://rapidshare.com/files/69599173...-prot.zip.html

  8. #28
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    I managed 810 DPS as prot on Solarian (who's admittedly really squishy) without a shaman, pots etc. I don't have great weapons either (decapitator, vindicator's brand). So I think we've come at least a little bit from the lol-prot-dps days.

  9. #29
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    If someone wants to do some digging, there is a post some where on the EJ forums, about prot DPS being viable. Keep in mind this isnt amazing dps but definatly more than acceptable for a prot warrior. Ill try to find it and relay the link here.

  10. #30
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    I just thought of something else to throw into the works here.

    Now that we're packing all this new fancy Expertise gear and talents, your Overpower procs are going to go down since the target will be dodging less.

    A slow off-hand and whirlwind is starting to sound better to me.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Belak View Post
    I just thought of something else to throw into the works here.

    Now that we're packing all this new fancy Expertise gear and talents, your Overpower procs are going to go down since the target will be dodging less.

    A slow off-hand and whirlwind is starting to sound better to me.
    There isnt really any expertise gear that you would want to be dpsing with. Maybe the vashj belt, but there are other choices. Expertise from defiance doesnt work outside of defensive stance. A slow offhand is probably a little better, the extra instant attack from wwing with the offhand is going to improve your mongoose/executioner enchant uptime from the offhand in addition to doing slightly more dmg.
    Derrida, Transcended, Blackhand (US)

  12. #32
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    Ah, ok. That makes sense. I haven't looked at much of the dps plate to be honest. On the other hand, a human wielding swords or maces has a non-negligible amount of expertise already.

    Heh - won't that be ironic if the new orc and human racial buffs turned into a penalty under some conditions? Doh!

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Belak View Post
    Ah, ok. That makes sense. I haven't looked at much of the dps plate to be honest. On the other hand, a human wielding swords or maces has a non-negligible amount of expertise already.

    Heh - won't that be ironic if the new orc and human racial buffs turned into a penalty under some conditions? Doh!
    I'd be very surprised if not getting dodged actually lead to a decrease in DPS. Sure overpower is pretty nice, but unless you are swimming in rage, or too threat capped to use devestate and HS, staying in berserker stance for the new whirlwind and 3% crit should result in higher DPS.

    With my current weapon combo([item]Dragonstrike[/item]MH[item]Fury[/item]OH) Whirlwind hits for between 800 and 1000 fully raid buffed. Even with a six second CD vs ten, whirlwind tends to win out now that it hits with both weapons. It can be looked at like this:

    WW damage = MH damage + (OH damage/2)+ [(AP/14)*2.4]*1.5
    OP damage = MH damage + (AP/14)*2.4

    Overpower's cooldown is 60% of Whirlwind, so it's average damage vs WW is increased by ~40%, this still isn't enough to outdo the 50% increased damage per hit from an OH.
    All these numbers presume you are using two same DPS, non dagger weapons. If your OH is a dagger overpowering every six seconds would indeed outdo whirlwind every ten. Likewise if your offhand is a much lower DPS weapon, OP might be better. In general the extra 3% crit and the slight increase to procs from an extra OH hit every ten seconds will usually make up for these losses though, giving 'zerk stance the nod in the end.

  14. #34
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    Funny enough tonight doing Teron attempts i let the other prot tank tank him instead of me since i had better dps gear then he did, lol i also have better tank gear but besides the point. I currently have dragonstrike and fools bane as my weps and rock about 5 expertise, 122 hit, 1700ap, and 32.8% crit unbuffed in zerker stance. I don't recall my raid buffed stats but i know that i wasn't in a melee dps buffing group, i was with the tank helping his threat with battle shout. My spec is 11/6/43.

    What im trying to get to here is how Prot DPS is viable, I did on 3 solid attempts 850 to 900 sustained dps just mashing Devestate, WW, and Heroic strike without really thinking of a decent rotation. Overall i was impressed and decided to test out this theory a bit more.

    Looking over the WW cd i made a macro to use as a dps test. 6 Dev:1 WW, with heroic strikes when above 50% rage.

    /castsequence reset=9 Devastate, Devastate, Devastate, Devastate, Devastate, Devastate, Whirlwind

    Off to Blasted Lands i went to test on the mobs on about what my dps would be fully raid buffed roughly.. I did 3 tests of 6 minute intervals (2 BS lengths) and my average sustained dps according to recount was 950 to 1000. I was like ok, this a reasonable, a bit inflated maybe but regardless probably close to the actual.

    I decided to test an all out Prot DPS Spec 0/20/41. Doing the same testing of 6 minute sustaind intervals i was reading numbers of 1100 to 1200 sustained dps.

    Now for the viability of Prot vs Fury, Yes Fury hits harder and on longer fights its nicer but what about shorter ones.

    Positives
    +The positives to prot is that you gain 6 expertise skill once the patch hits so that is nice for dodge removal but aside from that it has little to no ramp up time and buff refreshment.
    +Not having to refresh is a nice factor since it does cost 20 rage.
    +Assist with sunder applications
    +Little to to ramp up time
    +Possible to play with 1 key (macro the rotation), simple and good for movement fights possibly
    +Utility of being tank spec
    +10% strength and +5% stam
    +Low rage input for moves, this allows for more heroic strike spam
    +Not as dependent on hit because of the dual wield penalty (most attacks are instant attacks or are considered special attacks so +hit isn't so necessary)
    +With more instant attacks it allows for chance on hit items or weapon buff procs to proc more often, same concept of hamstring spam to get mongoose or like the oldschool crusader up.

    Negatives
    -No threat reduction
    -Devastate not scale as well as Bloodthirst with attack power?
    -No +haste from Flury
    -No Rampage buff
    -On longer fights its not as potent
    -Possibly lower attack power because of point allocation on pieces of gear like +str or +ap
    -No small incoming self heals (yet almost insignificant)


    I'll brainstorm more about this later... If i could find a dps spreadsheet with the 0/20/41 build in there with a 6:1 rotation i would really like to see how it compares to fury at different gear levels.

  15. #35
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    -No threat reduction
    -Devastate not scale as well as Bloodthirst with attack power?
    -No +haste from Flury
    -No Rampage buff
    -On longer fights its not as potent
    -Possibly lower attack power because of point allocation on pieces of gear like +str or +ap
    -No small incoming self heals (yet almost insignificant)
    Of the above I think no flurry and no threat reduction are the only real negatives. Add to that the smaller bonuses like weapon mastery and precision and imp battle shout. If I was going to put 17+ points somewhere for dps I'd go for impale personally instead of 20 pts in fury. Flurry is 25% more white dmg in addition to the extra rage. From what I've seen IMP 1h includes the full AP-modified dmg of your weapon. This means it scales better than imp zerker stance since it includes the weapon's base damage and your AP. The next question is whether Rampage is better than vitality. Fully raid buffed in good STR focused dps gear I think it's very competitive if not better.

    As for the scaling of devastate vs BT that's harder to simplify. I think they come out to be very close. My avg buffed dps-geared dmg on gruul was about 414 for devstate. BT = 6 sec cooldown, 30 rage cost. Assume 9 rage devastate. I can hit devastate 3 times in about 4.5 seconds at 27 rage cost so in the same gear and buffs BT would have to hit for well over 1200 dmg average to be superior.

    Devastate scales more like MS which scales inferior to BT but MS has a much larger portion coming from base weapon damage and only gets 1 swing so the AP increase only applies to 1 swing. Devastate per hit scales at 50% the speed of a normal hit from AP. But since 3 devastates = 1 BT roughly then you actually get about 1.5x scaling from the AP boost per equivilent attack set (50%x3) which is already a larger portion of the swing than MS given that it's a 1h. Add the superior scaling of imp 1h to that mix and you have an attack very competitive with BT for scaling IMO. One drawback is that to effectively use it you have to eat your GCD every round. BT does near the same damage at one use per 6 seconds leaving your GCD open to other attacks, or buffs....
    Last edited by Horgar; 11-29-2007 at 07:45 AM.

  16. #36
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    Thinking a bit today since it was late last night another drawback of not being 17.44 is that you lose sweeping strikes so places like hyjal where the trash is abundant there will be a drop on trash dps.

    As for always eating your GCD thing when dpsing and not leaving room for applying buffs or debuffs. As a 0/20/41 spec you don't have imp tc or imp demo so the tank would be applying them, other than that the only buff you would have to apply would be BS or CS once every 2 minutes. I personaly dont see how this is much of a strong point but it's still a valid one.

    One thing that i did notice with doing a 6:1 rotation was the consistant dps flow, it wasnt spikey at all on the recount graph overall and it was very consistant because of how often a special was used. I remember when being a fury spec that i would have periods of large dps spikes of like 1700 then periods of no crits where it would drop down to sub 500 range.

    When i get back I'll be testing a 17/44 spec witht he same exact gear setup to compare the dps values.. I still think 17/44 will out do 0/20/41 but 17/44 dosen't bring much for utility to the table in raids. Its something to think about for the offtanks to spec so they dont have to sit out on specific bosses or whatever.

  17. #37
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    Impale is pretty on paper, but it's not that significant. 20/41 has my vote... The bonus to DWing stacks with One-Hand Weapon Spec, making your OH better than that of a full Fury.
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  18. #38
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    As a full raid MT spec, I pulled 959 dps on Azgalor. I died at 21% so none of it is execute damage. Granted, it does take some good fury gear, but it takes good gear for a feral druid to dps as well so I see little difference. Would be interesting to see the numbers as a Prot DPS spec. This does, however, prove that we are not useless in a DPS role, and I think that's pretty good news.

    Wow Web Stats

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheZ View Post
    I'll brainstorm more about this later... If i could find a dps spreadsheet with the 0/20/41 build in there with a 6:1 rotation i would really like to see how it compares to fury at different gear levels.
    The issue with Prot DPS builds, is that you'll be picking up lots of talents that don't benefit DPS. You simply can't avoid picking up tank-only talents while trying to fill out the Prot tree to Devastate.

    Since a 0/20/41 build lacks Deflection, it's not a build for serious tanking. And if you're not serious about spec'ing for tanking, then a normal Arms or Fury build is better damage in the long run.

    A similar argument could be made for not having Imp TC, although you could in theory have another warrior on that duty.

  20. #40
    Since a 0/20/41 build lacks Deflection, it's not a build for serious tanking.
    I think the argument could be made the lack of 5% parry in an OT dps build (with all the other tank talents) is pretty negligable. No MT is going to do a "dps prot" build, but it is may be very viable for an OT build.

    There should however be some analysis done on how a 0/20/41 build compares to something like a 17/3/41 type build (which would then include deflection).
    The beast is getting hungrier.

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