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Thread: Protection DPS

  1. #1
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    Protection DPS

    Occasionally we wind up in a situation with 2 prot warriors and one mob to be tanking so myself or partner will shift to a dps roll. I've been killing illidan since july and have picked up an almost complete set of bt/hyjal dps gear. Does anyone know of any spreadsheets that include protection/devastate cycles or any threads aimed at optimizing gear choices for 41+ point prot builds?

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    ......Prot Warriors can DPS at all?.... Weird.... I thought they just stood there and looked scary to make the mobs hit them..... Oops. :P

  3. #3
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    Sure prot dps is situational, I get to do it maybe twice a week, but it is a fun change of pace and its worthwhile to min/max. The best i've done is 680 dps on winterchill in hyjal.

    In dps gear i've got 1650 ap, 28% crit, 180 hit rating, 100 haste rating, and -525 armor pen unbuffed. Rod of sun king mh, swiftsteel mace oh.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by derrida View Post
    Occasionally we wind up in a situation with 2 prot warriors and one mob to be tanking so myself or partner will shift to a dps roll. I've been killing illidan since july and have picked up an almost complete set of bt/hyjal dps gear. Does anyone know of any spreadsheets that include protection/devastate cycles or any threads aimed at optimizing gear choices for 41+ point prot builds?
    I don't think one exists D. But the same theory would apply for any warrior trying to dps (no matter what spec).

    Try to get as much yellow attacks as possible. When I go prot and end up getting to dps, I just stay in Battle Stance (unless there is a opportunity to take AOE damage - then I'll pop serk rage), and use 4 things: Devastate, Heroic Strike, Overpower (whenever it comes up), and Rend (although I hate taking a debuff slot with this in a raid)

    As you know Bosses dodge at least 5-6.5% on average, so Overpower ends up being better then 3% crit for me when I'm prot spec'ed. You can also drop 2% hit from that gear and stack more crit or AP too. I want to hear that you pushed 800 dps on Rage :P

  5. #5
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    If I have to DPS, which really has only ever been pre-heroics even I do pretty well what Herem mentioned. Help the tank stack some sunders, and spam Devastate. Queue up Heroic Strike when you've got a surplus of Rage. I like to stay in Battle Stance too just for Overpower, but if you like the crit then I'm sure Berserker Stance wont make too much of a difference. Of course this means you also have to Dual Wield, but since you've got One-Handed Weapon Spec, it's a good way to go anyway.

    I've seen some pretty decent numbers with it considering my rather pathetic DPS gear (Still some greens ) but have got 300-400dps in reg 70 instances. But with BT/Hyjal gear I'm sure you can double that.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Herem View Post
    and Rend (although I hate taking a debuff slot with this in a raid)
    I bet your warlocks plot your demise.

    As you know Bosses dodge at least 5-6.5% on average, so Overpower ends up being better then 3% crit for me when I'm prot spec'ed.
    I prefer Berserker Stance for the access to Whirlwind, as well as Pummel for specific fights. Depending on encounter, YMMV.

    As far as gear choices, I agree with the above approach: take full advantage of the boost from 1H Weapon Specialization by mostly following the DW Fury gearing, with some adjustments for being Prot instead.

    Vitality helps to weight Strength a bit higher, but you'll need to supply all your +hit through gear instead of talents. Grab a nice slow MH weapon to rack up the damage with your instants, as well.

  7. #7
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    Good advice above, slow weapon, max AP, spam Devastate over Heroic Strike

    My benchmark fight is Aran, as you never have to tank there.
    WWS Shade of Aran

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by phaze View Post
    I bet your warlocks plot your demise.


    I prefer Berserker Stance for the access to Whirlwind, as well as Pummel for specific fights. Depending on encounter, YMMV.

    As far as gear choices, I agree with the above approach: take full advantage of the boost from 1H Weapon Specialization by mostly following the DW Fury gearing, with some adjustments for being Prot instead.

    Vitality helps to weight Strength a bit higher, but you'll need to supply all your +hit through gear instead of talents. Grab a nice slow MH weapon to rack up the damage with your instants, as well.
    On Rend, I did say I don't like to take the debuff slot, so I wouldn't use it on a boss where everyone is focused

    But in my experience Battle Stance with Overpower and Heroic strikes > Serk & WW.

    For me in any spec especially Fury, when threat is not an issue - 2 HS's > 1 WW for the rage cost. That's cause WW for the most part isn't great, hence the change coming in the 2.3 patch IMO.

    But don't get me wrong, I figure out a way to always use BT/WW when ever they are up in my rotation, while adding in HS Spam. But the stats show 2 HS and far better then 1 WW right now if you have the rage.

    With a prot spec there really isn't any synergy with Crits, save the extra rage if it's a white attack. For me, I see 100 more dps staying in Battle Stance and just using HS, Dev., and Overpower, not counting Rend which can add another 50 dps minimum (again if target has some open debuff slots)

    And of course it's Serk Stance if you need to Pummel

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gurge View Post
    Good advice above, slow weapon, max AP, spam Devastate over Heroic Strike

    My benchmark fight is Aran, as you never have to tank there.
    WWS Shade of Aran
    Looking at your WWS you liked HS very much and your WW's were very low To clearify on my post and my perference for Battle Stance. Devastate > HS (w/ a Slow MH and not by much) & Overpower whenever its up. But with the rage HS spam comes into play and adds a lot of damage, at the same time giving you those important yellow attacks. Lots of ways to get rage, AOE damage, Rage Pots if your cheap, Haste if your rich.

    Aran has a very low dodge rate, so maybe serk stance for him would be perferred. But I would still stance dance at low rage points to keep Rend up (especially in a 10 man where you have open debuff slots), but vs. T5 and higher bosses, but over one of these bosses in a 6-10 min fight Overpower will yield good results. Plus, currently as far as boss migitation, it's the only counter to dodge until 2.3 Hits.

    Also switching to a fast MH for Sub 20% execute spam is perferred.

    I know your rich Derrida, so Haste pots.
    Last edited by Herem; 11-06-2007 at 10:17 AM.

  10. #10
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    I thought Rend did less damgae than Devastate, and was useless ?

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gurge View Post
    I thought Rend did less damgae than Devastate, and was useless ?

    Rend does crap damage for the most part, but the question was posed on how to maximize dps with a prot spec.

    So assuming there is a debuff slot open on a mob, if I was in that scenario and wanted to maximize dps, I would use it. It basically adds 50 dps even untalented every 21 secs for little rage.

    This whole thread and our posts took us into crazy world. Darn you Derrida for being able to dps in your raids at any point :P

  12. #12
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    I equip DPS gear and a two-hander for Aran (as my DW weapons are crap). The bonus from One-Hand Weapon Specialization is nice, sure -- but so is Slam, even untalented.
    風林火山陰雷

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  13. #13
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    I throw on my DPS gear and go to town w/ [item]Drakefist Hammer[/item] MH and [item]Blinkstrike[/item] OH, Rend, HS, OP. I just got dagger from prince last night and was using it OH and blinky MH. Would using hammer MH and dagger OH be a better combo to push my DPS? i have mongoose on Blinky and dagger but not on drakefist yet as I have been trying to get nethers to make the T2 hammer.
    How to play a Warrior:

    Q u o t e:
    Up, Up, Down, Down, Left, Right, Left, Right, B, A, Mortal Strike, Execute

  14. #14
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    I would use it. It basically adds 50 dps even untalented every 21 secs for little rage
    Please explain how Rend adds DPS, it does about 220? damage over 21 seconds, and replaces a Devastate that will do average about 700.
    To add 50 DPS it would have to hit for 1750, thats 7 ticks of 250.

  15. #15
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    So no one uses shield slam for dps? With my BV gear I would think it would out dps my off hand. I suppose with a slow main hand this may cause rage issues

  16. #16
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    I've been thinking about this a lot lately with 2.3 changes to whirlwind and devastate.

    Something like a 0/20/41 build with Supremous Maces or Anetheron Swords (Both main/offhand 2.6 or 2.7 with DPS > 100), 1h spec, dual wield spec, focus rage, improved sunder.

    However, as there's no spreadsheet that can calculate it currently, and I don't think that it'd be worthwhile unless you could pump out 1k DPS, I'm not sure I'd go there.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gurge View Post
    Please explain how Rend adds DPS, it does about 220? damage over 21 seconds, and replaces a Devastate that will do average about 700.
    To add 50 DPS it would have to hit for 1750, thats 7 ticks of 250.
    Isn't there a weapon damage component that is part of the calc., and doesn't it tick for 182 + weapon every 3 secs for 21 Secs. If this is wrong my bad (I can't access any sites from work to look at the tool tip right now), but I have done this once as a test and never ever actually use it in the game. So sorry if i'm completely off on this. I was mostly theory crafting on this whole issue with limited experience actually Prot dps'ing i.e. the old Aran days, etc.

    Do you really care about the Rend math It's not something people really use in end game. But I ran the math and tested it a long time ago and the range was like 40-50 dps to 140 dps. I ran it both on one-handers to a 2-hander with Imp Rend - Imp Rend is silly to actually get IMO. In real dps rotations, there just isn't a place for Rend Maybe my Math was completely off and this was before I knew about WWStats.

    Oops :P

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Herem View Post
    Isn't there a weapon damage component that is part of the calc., and doesn't it tick for 182 + weapon every 3 secs for 21 Secs. If this is wrong my bad (I can't access any sites from work to look at the tool tip right now), but I have done this once as a test and never ever actually use it in the game. So sorry if i'm completely off on this. I was mostly theory crafting on this whole issue with limited experience actually Prot dps'ing i.e. the old Aran days, etc.

    Do you really care about the Rend math It's not something people really use in end game. But I ran the math and tested it a long time ago and the range was like 40-50 dps to 140 dps. I ran it both on one-handers to a 2-hander with Imp Rend - Imp Rend is silly to actually get IMO. In real dps rotations, there just isn't a place for Rend Maybe my Math was completely off and this was before I knew about WWStats.

    Oops :P
    It ticks for 26 plus 0.743% weapon damage (using the normal formula for instant attacks, though I don't know whether or not it's normalized). 182 + 5.201% over 21 seconds.

    Practically nothing, in other words.
    風林火山陰雷

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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Norrath View Post
    It ticks for 26 plus 0.743% weapon damage (using the normal formula for instant attacks, though I don't know whether or not it's normalized). 182 + 5.201% over 21 seconds.

    Practically nothing, in other words.

    Don't know what the F I was thinking way back when, hence why the spell never sees any action what so ever :P

  20. #20
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    Well, i got my napkin out and ran a couple quick numbers since there wasn't too much available. Using the gear i have on unbuffed my weapon tooltip shows 607-794 dmg for an average of 700.

    Assuming a 0 armor target and a 5 sunder stack a devastate will land for [1/2*(700)+175]*(1+crit rate) and a whirlwind for (700)*(1+crit rate). Again, using my unbuffed stats (27% crit), this comes to 672 dmg per devastate and 889 dmg per ww. Most prot warriors, myself included, have 3/3 focused rage so you're looking at 12 rage devastates and 22 rage whirlwinds. I'd be getting 56 dmg/rage out of devastate and 40.4 dmg/rage out of ww. 2.3 will obviously change this significantly with dev dropping to 9 rage and ww taking into account offhand.

    Now to compare heroic strike for rage dumping to whirlwind. A heroic strike talented, costs 9 rage + 11(based on the wowwiki formula, my gear, and an npc with 40% armor) for the lost white damage. This implies that in terms of rage efficiency, you could use 2 whirlwinds for every 1 heroic strike. A heroic strike will provide me with 223 dmg over a white attack for 22 a cost adjusted 20 rage. WW as a rage dump replacing a devastate gives 217dmg for 10 rage. Clearly WW is a more cost effective rage dump then heroic strike.

    Since some people mentioned overpower in battle stance, its doing weapon dmg+ 35 (876@24% crit) for 2 rage(with 3/3 focused rage). Clearly, its the best dmg/rage ability available. Under ideal dodge circumstances, you'll be able to get 2 overpowers replacing devastates to every 1 whirlwind, so you'd wind up with an 8 rage gain and 174 dmg gain compared to ww dumping in battle.

    So the conclusions from my napkin:

    In a low rage situation pre 2.3, dev spam in battle stance is clearly the winner. If you've got tons of rage to dump, you're probably going to do somewhat better in zerker. How much better is beyond the scope of my napkin. Post 2.3 with the offhand WW dmg included, zerker stance will probably be better in all but the most rage starved situations.

    Another thing i noticed while doing these calcs is that the 1/2 weapon dmg + fixed value implies that crit is relatively more powerful, compared to ap, for a devastate spammer then it is for either an arms or fury warrior. I might try rewriting the equations in terms of ap and crit to find the function that relates crit to ap in terms of dps.

    Sorry if that was hard to follow, i wrote it on the fly, but i think its conceptually sound.

    Using a method that is so ugly i dont want to show it, raid buffed vs lvl 73 npc at 30% ar, using 2 heroic strikes 1 ww and 5.5 devastates per 10 seconds, i should be able to pull about 810 dps. My gear is strong in some areas and trash in others, given a couple warglaives, shaman, feral druid, you could look pretty decent. Dev spam is far from a good dps spec, but under this lense, its not totally laughable, i think most the tanks just dont have a full set of dps gear or opportunity to try it much.
    Last edited by derrida; 11-07-2007 at 03:31 PM.

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