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Thread: Cruelty and its effect on TPS

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crimsonstorm View Post
    Yes, Imp Heroic strike and (after 2.3) Imp Sunder are both better threat generators per talent pt than cruelty.

    However, you should get ALL THREE of those talents.
    Spec this:

    http://wowhead.com/?talent=LA0czZVZbEtoI0zcxst

    Really.
    It rules.
    That is precisely the spec I use. I love it.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meia View Post
    Relationships are a pretty neat thing. Cruelty generally DOUBLES your crit chance, from 5% to 10%. That is a 100% increase. The next 5% only increases it by 50% and reduces so on and so forth.

    I've read somewhere, I think, that like many abilities, you'll see a larger net increase for those 5 points in cruelty than you would for any other crit increases that come after it. It is like increasing your crit rate from 1% to 2%, the gain is quite substantial.

    I'm pretty sure there is math that supports a concept like this, but I'm not sure where it is at....

    more to come... when I have time.
    Nope it does not work that way, 5% crit when you have 5% crit is just as good as when you already have 25% crit in terms of the overall damage increase.

    For the assumption that a very slight increase in threat is a large overall damage increase, you're basing this off the fact that every single person is threat capped. This should not be the case. Even with rage starvation last Teron Gorefiend I think the closest dpser was a shadow priest at 80% of my threat (and don't tell anyone in my guild but I got 2 fps for the first 15 seconds of the fight).

    There are alternatives to Cruelty. Imp Defensive Stance is really nice for Kael and Hydross if you're looking at Tier 5 level content. For Tier 6 level content there's quite a bit more magic damage going around, especially on Winterchill, Mother Shahraz, Bloodboil, and Illidan (if you're an OT). Since I have no threat issues a vast majority of the time the marginal threat increase for the point cost is not worth it.

    If you really need threat swapping out a couple gems for +hit is the way to go, though in general the only person who should possibly be threat capped barring unusual circumstances should be the Fury Warrior.

  3. #23
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    I think it largely depends on the content and situation of the individual, like most things. Do you need more threat? Are many of your DPSers threat capped? Need a touch more rage? If so, then Cruelty is not a bad place to invest 5 points. If you're fine on all of those fronts, cudos to you, you've freed up 5 point to put... somewhere else.

    And I think the relationships that Meia was talking about is that 5% crit should yield 1 crit every 20 swings, while 10% (increasing by 5%) should yield 1 crit in every 10 swings, effectively doubling the ammount. 25% should yield 1 in 4, while 30% (again an increse of 5%) should yield 1 crit in 3.33 swings. Statistically 5% should be just that, 5% and on a per swing basis it should prove to be true, but surely there's a theory out there to support what Meia was talking about.

  4. #24
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    I'm 12/5/44 as well, and it really boils down to one question for me... where else am I going to spend those 5 points?

    I toyed around with deep wound/impale on one PTR, but threat generation was even less consistent. Forget booming voice in the fury tree. In the protection tree, what else is there to take to increase your threat that you don't already have? It may not be the best use out of your 61 talent points, but it's not like it's a bad choice either.

  5. #25
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    Crit chance is independent of weapon speed

    Raising your crit chance simply means replacing normal hits with crits.

    You will, over time, do 5% more damage on every single ability which has the capability to crit: white damage, shield slam, revenge, devastate, heroic strike, etc.

    5% more damage means 7.475% more threat in defensive stance from every ability which can crit. It also means that the white damage attacks generate 5% more rage (because a crit generates twice the rage), which in turn means you can dump it into heroic strike more often, raising your average TPS even more.

    The person who said 2-3% more threat must use a lot of abilities which can't crit. The abilities which cannot crit are few. Cruelty is a wonderful thing.

    Critting has nothing to do with weapon speed. Whether you swing X or Y number of times in a given encounter, 5% more dps is 7.475% more tps.

  6. #26
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    The math in this thread is almost too horrible to read.

    Sorry.

    Assuming that you have a 10% crit chance without Cruelty and that 70% of your threat comes from damage. Then, Cruelty will increase your threat generation by a factor of:

    1.15/1.10*0.7+0.3 = 1.03181818181818,

    i.e. about a 3.2% threat increase in the long term.

    It is totally irrelevant that Cruelty increases your crit rate by 100% if you have a base crit rate of 5%, because crits itself make up only a relatively small fraction of your total threat. 100% of a small amount is still a small amount.

    No, 5% more damage does not mean 7.457% more threat in defensive stance from any ability that can crit. It means 5% more threat on the damage part of that ability (and practically all warrior abilities also have innate threat that doesn't get multiplied). The multipliers are independent.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crimsonstorm View Post
    Yes, Imp Heroic strike and (after 2.3) Imp Sunder are both better threat generators per talent pt than cruelty.

    However, you should get ALL THREE of those talents.
    Spec this:

    http://wowhead.com/?talent=LA0czZVZbEtoI0zcxst

    Really.
    It rules.
    Would love to see some math behind these statements.

    1. Imp Heroic Strike cannot be better threat than Cruelty in low rage fights because you won't be using Heroic Strike at all.

    2. Will Imp Sunder and Imp Heroic Strike create a situation in High Rage fights where you effectively waste rage since you cannot use that rage fast enough? Does being speced into Anger Management make this affect even worse?

    I think what you guys have to understand is that Imp HS and Imp Sunder are Rage Efficiency talents where as Cruelty is a Threat talent. For that reason, they are extremely difficult to compare accurately and honestly I wouldn't try to compare them.

    So until I see some math, I'd still choose Cruelty over Imp HS/Imp Sunder.

  8. #28
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    Even if cruelty is better than Imp Heroic or Imp Sunder, for improving threat genenration (and dps), all 3 are still worth getting, since they are better than alternatives.
    Last edited by Crimsonstorm; 11-13-2007 at 03:27 PM.

  9. #29
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    When was the last time you said "Damn, I wish I had less crit"?

    Fact is, it's useful for all stances, all situation, and you don't need to sacrifice much get it.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wartorn View Post
    When was the last time you said "Damn, I wish I had less crit"?

    Fact is, it's useful for all stances, all situation, and you don't need to sacrifice much get it.
    Just for the record, I didn't actually make any statements about the benefits of Cruelty (or lack thereof). I was just correcting some bogus math.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roana View Post
    Just for the record, I didn't actually make any statements about the benefits of Cruelty (or lack thereof). I was just correcting some bogus math.
    Wasn't directed at anyone. Just a general statement about the fantabulicity of cruelty.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crimsonstorm View Post
    Even if cruelty is better than Imp Heroic or Imp Sunder, for improving threat genenration (and dps), all 3 are still worth getting, since they are better than alternatives.
    No denying you have a fantastic build, but I like 2 in Imp Demo and 2 in Imp Shield Wall. Dealing in a casual guild, I very rarely find myself threat capping anyone.

  13. #33
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    Thanks for the correction

    Quote Originally Posted by Roana View Post
    No, 5% more damage does not mean 7.457% more threat in defensive stance from any ability that can crit. It means 5% more threat on the damage part of that ability (and practically all warrior abilities also have innate threat that doesn't get multiplied). The multipliers are independent.
    Ahhh, that is exactly what I needed to hear. Thank you!

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