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Thread: Cruelty and its effect on TPS

  1. #1
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    Cruelty and its effect on TPS

    Almost every prot warrior puts points into Cruelty, including me. I've been 12/5/44 for quite some time, but always had the gut feeling that those 5 points were badly invested.
    Of course I love my huge Shield Slam crits, but Cruelty will "upgrade" only one Shield Slam every 2 or 3 minutes. Damn spiky threat and not much of an over-time increase, if you ask me.

    My crude calculations about the long-term effects of Cruelty:

    - I pull about 250 DPS on Prince Malchezaar, Maulgar and Gruul (damagemeters / assessment).
    - 5% crit raises damage dealt by 5%.
    - damage increase of cruelty is 250 x 0.05 = 12.5 DPS
    - 12.5 DPS x 1.495 (defstance+defiance) = 18.7 TPS

    *** That is 3.74 TPS per talent point put into cruelty. ***

    Is my math completely off base? If not, the contibution of cruelty to threat is pitiful.

    Patch 2.3 is shaping up to be a huge boost in warrior threat (devastate changes + expertise), and I'll probably respec out of it.

    What do you think?

  2. #2
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    Well, the crit % really isnt going to just increase your DPS by a straight 5% since it's really more dependant on the attack speed of your weapon. Without getting into miss/dodge/parry chances I came up with my own crude math.

    Lets use a KD(1.6 attack speed, average damage of 140, 280 on a crit). This also doesnt factor in AP or other damage increase abilities like One-Handed Spec.

    Over a 5 minute boss fight (300 secs) you'd get 187.5 swings with KD. Each one of those having an additional 5% chance to crit is another 9.38 crits equalling 2,626 extra damage over 5 minutes or 8.75 DPS. TPS would be 13.08. So on a per second basis it does seem pretty lack lustre. But, where it shines is over that same 5 minute fight you just did 3,924 more threat, which converts into damage that the other people in the raid can do. Lets say in Kara, with only 5 DPSers thats another 19, 620 damage that can be tossed out comfortably. Lets say 10 DPS in Gruul's for 39,240 damage that your raid can open up with in that same 5 minutes that they couldnt have otherwise if you didnt have that talent.

    This also only factors in straight white damage weapon swings, let alone things like Shield Slam which should crit about twice in that time, Revenges, Heroic Strike (though thats takes a white swing away) and Devastates. All of which are on top of the white weapon swings. The point is that every little increase in your TPS effects everyone in a raid, increasing its effect exponentially by the number of people in that raid. At level 70 and raiding content, it's all about splitting hairs to get that little extra out of everyone.

    With your calcs that extra 18.7 TPS is an extra 56,100 more damage in 5 mins on a Gruul's fight.

    The nice thing with crit is that is scales, so as your gear gets better so will the results of Cruelty. Best of all, it's passive! You dont have to do anything or think about using it, it's just there all the time.

    Now of course I could be way off base here too, but thats how I see it.
    Last edited by Mayhoon; 10-24-2007 at 07:35 AM. Reason: Additional thoughts

  3. #3
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    One other thing to note is simply that the more melee crits one has, the more rage that is built up from white damage. With a constant pattern involving devistate, shield slam, revenge, and shield block, this would mean factoring in extra heroic strikes (or shield slams if rage starved). This would increase the average TPS beyond the values given in the previous posts.

  4. #4
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    Its a small threat increase, but its a big FUN increase imo. :P I want to see some big shield slam crits.

    Now, if there were anything else that was good to take instead, I would. But the other options are worse than it.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crimsonstorm View Post
    Now, if there were anything else that was good to take instead, I would. But the other options are worse than it.
    Especially considering most tanks have to farm or want to PvP sometimes. 5% crit is a lot more useful than the other options.


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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    Almost every prot warrior puts points into Cruelty, including me. I've been 12/5/44 for quite some time, but always had the gut feeling that those 5 points were badly invested.
    Of course I love my huge Shield Slam crits, but Cruelty will "upgrade" only one Shield Slam every 2 or 3 minutes. Damn spiky threat and not much of an over-time increase, if you ask me.

    My crude calculations about the long-term effects of Cruelty:

    - I pull about 250 DPS on Prince Malchezaar, Maulgar and Gruul (damagemeters / assessment).
    - 5% crit raises damage dealt by 5%.
    - damage increase of cruelty is 250 x 0.05 = 12.5 DPS
    - 12.5 DPS x 1.495 (defstance+defiance) = 18.7 TPS

    *** That is 3.74 TPS per talent point put into cruelty. ***

    Is my math completely off base? If not, the contibution of cruelty to threat is pitiful.

    Patch 2.3 is shaping up to be a huge boost in warrior threat (devastate changes + expertise), and I'll probably respec out of it.

    What do you think?

    considering you are monitoring your DPS with cruelty you would need to get your avg dps without cruelty. You also didnt seem to factor in the additional threat of a crit shield slam. On top of SS, devestate and revenge can crit and receive more threat from crits,also white crits = more rage. If all you do is sunder then cruelty is a waste yes. To actually figure out what you lose/gain from crit would be much more difficult to figure out then what you did. In addition you would have to factor in the combat table.

  7. #7
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    Cruelty adds about 2%-3% to your total threat. Sure it's not a HUGE upgrade, but incremental changes really add up.

  8. #8
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    more white hit crits = more rage.

    more shield slam crits = more threat

    more devastate crits = more threat

    more heroic strike crits = more threat

    more revenge crits = more threat.

    see where i'm going here?

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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brickhuase View Post
    considering you are monitoring your DPS with cruelty you would need to get your avg dps without cruelty. You also didnt seem to factor in the additional threat of a crit shield slam. On top of SS, devestate and revenge can crit and receive more threat from crits,also white crits = more rage. If all you do is sunder then cruelty is a waste yes. To actually figure out what you lose/gain from crit would be much more difficult to figure out then what you did. In addition you would have to factor in the combat table.
    That's all rolled into his total DPS (so he does need to back calculate his TPS without cruelty to figure out the difference, but all the other damage talents roll into his total DPS). The real deal OP, is that you actually have very little in the way of tools in your talent tree to increase your total threat per second once you've met some basic tanking requirements for doin what you do (oh god, the voodoo). So you have to look at your options once you've attained the minimum that you set in your prot tree. I think you'll find that there is no cheaper investment than cruelty when it comes to # of talent points required to reach and attain the talent vs TPS.

  10. #10
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    Oh! there's also some hit tabley stuff that make it so that if the mob has 30% avoidance, you gain 5% to crit, if you go from 15->20%, your hit (ignoring the glancing blow mechanic, just showcasing some math) goes from 45->40. This then means that you go from 15/70 (in the case that you are hitting a mob) to 20/70. Which means that IF you have not rolled a miss/parry/dodge on the mob, then out of the remaining table you have nearly a 28.6% chance to crit, versus a 21% from not having cruelty.

    Note: I'm not implying that there's a dual roll going on, but merely that if you evaluate only the cases where you contact the mob, your crit % will be higher than expected due to refining the scope on which you evaluate.

  11. #11
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    Unfortunately the table doesn't include just crits and hits, so that really doesn't mean much.

    Cruelty is a nice talent, but to be frank, I have not noticed much difference from having it versus not having it.

    My usual talent build is 8/0/53; the one I'm testing currently is 11/5/45. Right now, I think I'd prefer to cut back some, at the very least enough to get 2/3 Tactical Mastery and 3/3 Improved Defensive Stance, making it an 11/0/50 build.
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  12. #12
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    Why tactical master? There are very few fights where you ever need to get out of def stance.

  13. #13
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    Mmm i should also point out that dps does not equal your TPS

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wartorn View Post
    Why tactical master? There are very few fights where you ever need to get out of def stance.
    There are very few (boss) fights where you should get out of Defensive stance, I think you mean.

    While that is true, TM is useful to me. I like being able to stance-dance and Intercept a mob rather than relying on just Intervene, and if I Intercept a mob, I want to be able to use Shield Slam as fast as possible. There are also some fights where I prefer to fight stretches of it in Berserker Stance to be able to catch a random Fear effect, and TM helps me retain as much rage as possible.
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  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Norrath View Post
    Unfortunately the table doesn't include just crits and hits, so that really doesn't mean much.

    Cruelty is a nice talent, but to be frank, I have not noticed much difference from having it versus not having it.

    My usual talent build is 8/0/53; the one I'm testing currently is 11/5/45. Right now, I think I'd prefer to cut back some, at the very least enough to get 2/3 Tactical Mastery and 3/3 Improved Defensive Stance, making it an 11/0/50 build.
    Relationships are a pretty neat thing. Cruelty generally DOUBLES your crit chance, from 5% to 10%. That is a 100% increase. The next 5% only increases it by 50% and reduces so on and so forth.

    I've read somewhere, I think, that like many abilities, you'll see a larger net increase for those 5 points in cruelty than you would for any other crit increases that come after it. It is like increasing your crit rate from 1% to 2%, the gain is quite substantial.

    I'm pretty sure there is math that supports a concept like this, but I'm not sure where it is at....

    more to come... when I have time.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Norrath View Post
    There are very few (boss) fights where you should get out of Defensive stance, I think you mean.

    While that is true, TM is useful to me. I like being able to stance-dance and Intercept a mob rather than relying on just Intervene, and if I Intercept a mob, I want to be able to use Shield Slam as fast as possible. There are also some fights where I prefer to fight stretches of it in Berserker Stance to be able to catch a random Fear effect, and TM helps me retain as much rage as possible.
    Sorry, I'm horde, so I NEED to get out of Def stance to break fears. :P

    I hear you on intercept though. It's still a habit for me to zerker/intercept (followed by hamstring or taunt) instead of intervening. But you got to consider that you only take advantage of TM maybe 1 time a fight, 2 if you're unlucky. That's a maximum of 30 rage saved. I'm pretty sure cruelty will more than make up for that loss in the long run.

  17. #17
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    Thanks for the great feedback!

    Some good points have been made, here's my take on some of them:

    - The usefulness of 2-3% extra threat depends on how hard/often dps has to hold back. My threat output at the moment is more than sufficient and that colors my view obviously.

    - Of course I agree that every bit helps, but those 5 talent points could go somewhere else, for example imp heroic strike, imp taunt, imp def stance, imp shield wall, imp sunder (come patch 2.3).

    - According to my math Improved Heroic Strike ist a better TPS investment than Cruelty. After 2.3 Improved Sunder will be better, too. I realize that I should back that up with some math, but I'm too tired at the moment. Maybe I'll be back with it later

    I agree about one thing: The fun factor of those nice crits. And since Cruelty works passively, you don't have to do anything for them! Maybe those points stay after all... or not.

    Again, sorry for the short reply and missing math. See you on Tankspot.

  18. #18
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    Yes, Imp Heroic strike and (after 2.3) Imp Sunder are both better threat generators per talent pt than cruelty.

    However, you should get ALL THREE of those talents.
    Spec this:

    http://wowhead.com/?talent=LA0czZVZbEtoI0zcxst

    Really.
    It rules.

  19. #19
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    Hey, that's exactly the spec I've tanked with for the last 5 months, point for point. And it IS great.

    The alternative is picking up imp taunt (still do a lot of heroic/5-man tanking) and imp def stance (Hydross soon). I'll just have to see, if I see any difference without Cruelty. Hmm, I can always go back.

    Edit: Just saw your talent guide, Crimson. Great work!
    Last edited by Finn; 10-25-2007 at 02:03 AM.

  20. #20
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    You can drop 2 points out of Anticipation to get Imp. Taunt. That's probably what I'll be doing.

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