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Thread: Threat changes to MS with TM

  1. #1
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    Threat changes to MS with TM

    Alright had to trash my initial data because of various variances that were unforeseen. Instead I asked Fame to parse out the data for me and I would break it down for him and he did everything in a methodic manner. Lets see what we get!

    Fame's Data:

    Thanks Fame:

    Lets parse! He did this in Blasted Lands, with a resto druid as his partner in normal form, hitting with a low level weapon, no multipliers, he spec'd defiance and mortal strike and came up with these #'s. Also he used bloodrage out of combat, and only entered combat with the mob AFTER all the ticks of bloodrage had gone off.

    0 TM 340

    39
    30
    38
    28
    87
    74
    79
    77
    47
    = 499 raw threat from druid

    340*1.495 = 508.3 threat generated from fame
    508.3 * 1.10 = 559.13 threat needed to pull

    O_o, wth. Fame says its possible that they missed out a number, if it did hit for 60 or so that would work out, so we'll just kinda skip this one.

    _____________
    0 TM 327

    39
    30
    38
    28
    87
    74
    79
    77
    47
    44
    34
    = 577 raw threat from the dr00d.

    327 * 1.495 = 488.865 threat generated from fame.
    488.865 * 1.1 = 537.7515 threat needed to pull agro. Again, it seems like an extra # this time got counted which still works. this is the 0/3 TM test, we're just making sure there's no weird threat modifier tied into MS. none noticeable yet.

    _____________
    0 TM 297

    74
    61
    76
    72
    60
    57
    97
    = 497 raw damage from dr00d.

    297*1.495 = 444.015 threat generated from fame.
    444.015 * 1.1 = 488.4165 threat needed to pull agro.

    Perfect findings, so no innate threat on MS. gotcha!


    1/3 Tactical Mastery tests:
    ______________
    1 TM 294

    38
    51
    54
    70
    36
    89
    53
    79
    79
    62
    = 611 raw damage/threat from druid.

    294 * 1.495 = 439.53 threat generated from fame.
    439.53 * 1.1 = 483.483 threat needed to pull agro.

    611 - 483.483 = 127.517 bonus threat
    127.517 / 1.495 = 85.296 innate threat from MS/TM combination.

    _______________
    1 TM 308

    50
    60
    57
    86
    43
    87
    73
    47
    96
    = 599 raw damage/threat generated from druid.

    308 * 1.495 = 460.46 threat generated from fame.
    460.46 * 1.1 = 506.506 threat needed to pull agro.

    599 - 506.506 = 92.494 bonus threat
    92.494 / 1.495 = 61.868 innate Threat from MS/TM combination.
    _______________
    1 TM 316

    53
    30
    44
    26
    49
    93
    65
    56
    50
    92
    36
    61
    = 655 raw damage/threat from druid

    316 * 1.495 = 472.42 threat generated from fame.
    472.42 * 1.1 = 519.662 threat needed to pull agro.

    655 - 519.662 = 135.338 bonus threat
    135.338 / 1.495 = 90.527 innate threat from MS/TM combo.


    Averages: (85.296+61.868+90.527)/3 = 79.23 threat on average bonus from TM 1/3 with MS.


    2/3 Tactical Mastery Tests:
    ________________
    2 TM 316, *144 auto

    60
    51
    90
    84
    58
    33
    90
    32
    54
    87
    95
    62
    79
    65
    50
    = 913

    (144+316)*1.495 = 687.7 threat generate by Fame.
    687.7 * 1.1 = 756.47 threat needed to pull agro.

    913 - 756.47 = 156.53 bonus threat
    156.53 / 1.495 = 104.7 innate threat from MS/TM2 Combo.

    ___________________
    2 TM 285

    158
    72
    85
    68
    145
    75
    52
    44
    =699 raw damage/threat from druid

    285 * 1.495 = 426.075 threat generated from Fame.
    426.075 * 1.1 = 468.6825 threat needed to pull agro.

    699 - 468.6825 = 230.3175 bonus threat
    230.3175 / 1.495 = 154.06 innate threat from MS/TM2 Combo.

    ___________________
    2 TM 307

    93
    93
    85
    175
    40
    59
    94
    82
    = 721 raw damage/threat from druid.

    307 * 1.495 = 485.965 threat generated from fame.
    485.965 * 1.1 = 504.8615 threat needed to pull agro.

    721 - 504.8615 = 216.1385 bonus threat
    216.1385 / 1.495 = 144.57 innate threat from MS/TM2 Combo.

    Now for averages:
    (104.7+154.06+144.57)/3 = 134.4433333333 bonus Threat from MS/TM2 Combo.

    And here we are, at 3/3 Tactical Mastery:
    ___________________
    3 TM 298

    38
    54
    118
    89
    53
    97
    80
    86
    54
    81
    60
    48
    = 858 raw damage/threat from druid.

    298 * 1.495 = 445.51 threat generated from fame.
    445.51 * 1.1 = 490.061 threat needed to pull agro.

    858 - 490.061 = 367.939 bonus threat
    367.939 / 1.495 = 246.11 innate threat from MS/TM3 Combo.

    ____________________
    3 TM 333

    39
    52
    61
    58
    46
    48
    61
    68
    70
    178
    54
    36
    49
    48
    40
    = 908 raw damage/threat from druid.

    333*1.495 = 497.935 threat generated from fame.
    497.935 * 1.1 = 547.6185 threat needed to pull agro.

    908 - 547.6185 = 360.3815 bonus threat
    360.3815 / 1.495 = 241.058 innate threat from MS/TM3 Combo.

    ______________________
    3 TM 285

    33
    60
    76
    45
    65
    78
    39
    91
    64
    69
    45
    75
    92
    = 832 raw damage/threat from druid.

    285 * 1.495 = 426.075 threat generated from fame.
    426.075 * 1.1 = 468.6825 threat needed to pull agro.

    832 - 468.6825 = 363.3175 bonus threat
    363.3175 / 1.495 = 243.02 innate threat from MS/TM3 Combo.

    Averages: (246.11+241.058+243.02) / 3 = 243.396 bonus threat from the MS/TM3 Combo.

    Conclusions:

    80ish bonus threat from tm 1
    135ish bonus threat from tm 2
    240ish bonus threat from tm 3.

    Its not Shield slam, but it does indeed help MS warriors generate more threat when spec'd into TM. I Imagine BT has the same static values. From my prior findings in my tests although they may be flawed compared to Fame's more clear cut findings, I am almost 100% sure that it is not based on your damage dealt since I have various crits recorded with no huge fluctuation in the bonus threat.

    Any corrections to my calculations are much appreciated and by all means slap me around if i made dumb mistakes, but as far as I can tell, this is correct, and it looks fairly clear cut (especially after Fame's tests results).

    Updated: needed to correct Innate threat values by removing the bonus from defiance/defensive stance.

    If you want a more detailed finding using error margins, see post #5 made by Satrina. (Thanks for the correction Satrina!)
    Last edited by Kazeyonoma; 10-17-2007 at 09:36 AM. Reason: Updated

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  2. #2
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    Parsing moved to OP.
    Last edited by Kazeyonoma; 10-16-2007 at 01:57 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Turelliax View Post
    I will never be a kaz.. no one can reach the utter awesomeness of you.
    http://i.imgur.com/3vbQi.gif

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  4. #4
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    That's what it looks like atm, I'll need to confirm with Satrina and Crimson that i didn't fudge up the #'s anywhere.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Turelliax View Post
    I will never be a kaz.. no one can reach the utter awesomeness of you.
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  5. #5
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    I'm pretty sure that the TM threat bonus will be subject to Defiance and D-stance modifiers, so you need to divide your final numbers by 1.495.

    No Tactical Mastery tests
    Just before the last hit which pulls aggro, there is some finite amount of threat between what the warrior has and the druid needs to pull aggro. It is between 1 threat and the size of the last hit - that amount is your error margin. As long as the difference between druid threat and warrior threat is less than the size of the last hit, you can call it zero. In any case, the average of all tests will show what's going on.

    MS = 340, Druid = 499, Last Hit = 47
    340x1.495x1.1 = 559 threat to pull aggro
    Delta = (499-559) => -60/1.495 = -40
    ** -40 innate threat +/- 23 => (-63,-17)

    MS = 327, Druid = 577, Last Hit = 34
    327x1.495x1.1 = 538 threat to pull aggro
    Delta = (577-538) => 39/1.495 = 26
    ** 26 innate threat +/- 16.5 => (3,49)

    MS = 297, Druid = 497, Last Hit = 97
    297x1.495x1.1 = 488 threat to pull aggro
    Delta = (497-488) => 9/1.495 = 6
    ** 6 innate threat +/- 48 => (-17,29)


    Average low = (-63+3+-17)/3 = -26
    Average high = (-17+49+29)/3 = 20
    ** Average = -3

    Confirmed - no innate threat modifier from Mortal Strike.

    Tactical Mastery tests
    Now we are expecting a difference that is significantly bigger than the last hit landed by the druid. The difference between the amount of threat needed to take aggro and the size of the last hit makes the error margin on your caluclated bonus threat. Since we don't know how much threat we actually needed to create to pull aggro, that difference gives you a range that is at most (last hit - 1)/2 around the calculated bonus threat.

    1/3 Tactical Mastery
    MS = 294, Druid = 611, Last Hit = 62
    294x1.495x1.1 = 483 threat to pull aggro
    Delta = (611-483) => 128/1.495 = 85
    ** 85 innate threat +/- 30.5 => (55,116)

    MS = 308, Druid = 599, Last Hit = 96
    308x1.495x1.1 = 507 threat to pull aggro
    Delta = (599-507) => 92/1.495 = 62
    ** 62 innate threat +/- 47.5 => (31,92)

    MS = 316, Druid = 655, Last Hit = 61
    316x1.495x1.1 = 520 threat to pull aggro
    Delta = (655-520) => 135/1.495 = 91
    ** 91 innate threat +/- 30 => (60,121)

    Average low = (55+31+60)/3 = 49
    Average high = (116+92+121)/3 = 110
    ** Average = 80



    2/3 Tactical Mastery
    (The 144 autoattack becomes 215 threat, which becomes 237 threat when looking at taking aggro)
    (we remove hits for 90, 84, 62 in the druid dataset to offset this and leave us only with the MS threat)
    MS = 316, Druid = 677, Last Hit = 50
    316x1.495x1.1 = 520 threat to pull aggro
    Delta = (677-520) => 157/1.495 = 105
    ** 105 innate threat +/- 24.5 => (81,130)

    MS = 285, Druid = 699, Last Hit = 44
    285x1.495x1.1 = 469 threat to pull aggro
    Delta = (699-469) => 230/1.495 = 154
    ** 154 innate threat +/- 21.5 => (130,179)

    MS = 307, Druid = 721, Last Hit = 82
    307x1.495x1.1 = 505 threat to pull aggro
    Delta = (721-505) => 216/1.495 = 145
    ** 145 innate threat +/- 40.5 => (120,169)


    Average low = (81+130+120)/3 = 110
    Average high = (130+179+169)/3 = 159
    ** Average = 135



    3/3 Tactical Mastery
    MS = 298, Druid = 858, Last Hit = 48
    298x1.495x1.1 = 490 threat to pull aggro
    Delta = (858-490) => 368/1.495 = 246
    ** 246 innate threat +/- 23.5 => (223,270)

    MS = 333, Druid = 908, Last Hit = 40
    333x1.495x1.1 = 548 threat to pull aggro
    Delta = (908-548) => 360/1.495 = 241
    ** 241 innate threat +/- 19.5 => (218,265)

    MS = 285, Druid = 832, Last Hit = 92
    285x1.495x1.1 = 469 threat to pull aggro
    Delta = (832-469) => 363/1.495 = 243
    ** 243 innate threat +/- 45.5 => (220,267)

    Average low = (223+218+220)/3 = 220
    Average high = (270+265+267)/3 = 267
    ** Average = 244



    Results
    1/3 -> 80 average - maybe 75 real
    2/3 -> 135 average - mabye 125 real
    3/3 -> 244 average - maybe 250 real


    With small data sets like this we still have a pretty big margin of error on numbers. Blizzard isn't averse to assigning oddball numbers for threat as we know, but I rounded to sorta-sequenced numbers anyway. We'll need a lot more data sets to pin the numbers down exactly in any case.

  6. #6
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    Well If any hordies wanna get on the pvp server tonight I'll be down to generate more test results in blasted lands. If fame has got more time we can collect more as well and thanks for the /1.495 thing I'll correct that in my initial post and refer to this post as well to include min/max and error margins.

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    i'll help you out if i'm not lagged, i'm Fudoh on the PTR (or any other variation of the name :P)

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    I'll probably be on tonight. I can spec fury if you want to verify BT independently of MS. I'll be either Signu or Sigold.


    Check out my blog

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    i'll check for you guys tonight =]

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    Quote Originally Posted by Turelliax View Post
    I will never be a kaz.. no one can reach the utter awesomeness of you.
    http://i.imgur.com/3vbQi.gif

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kazeyonoma View Post
    Well If any hordies wanna get on the pvp server tonight I'll be down to generate more test results in blasted lands. If fame has got more time we can collect more as well and thanks for the /1.495 thing I'll correct that in my initial post and refer to this post as well to include min/max and error margins.
    id help if i wasnt alliance

  11. #11
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    Satrina I agree almost completely with what you posted. The exception is the very last step. It shouldn't be the average, but rather the intersection of the ranges meaning the highest low and lowest high. That's a window within which the innate threat should be.

    Look at it like this, you're using a counter balance scale. You have some unknown weight on one side and place known weights on the other side. One pound tips the scale, 5 pounds tips the scale, 10 pounds tips the scale. You know it's somewhere below one pound. Certainly it's below the average of 5 1/3 pounds, but you can give a more precise answer of it's below one pound since one pound tips the scale.

    Continueing that example you see one pound tips the scale so you try half a pound. Ok, it doesn't so the weight is between half a pound and one pound. So you put on three quarters and it does tip the scale so it's 0.5-0.75 pounds. So you try 0.6 pounds and it doesn't so it's 0.6-0.75 pounds. What you tried below 0.6 pounds or above 0.75 pounds is irrelevant once you know it's between those two.

    Here it isn't quite as simple because it isn't nearly as controlled of an environment. Which hit pulled aggro isn't easy to tell from a log. Clearly if the window established by two tests have an empty intersection then one of them is wrong. Spacing those hits out would make it a whole lot easier to be certain which hit pulled aggro, but is hard for melee to do. With a caster you could cast, wait, see if you pulled aggro, if clearly not then do it again until you do. Really, a rough guess at this point is enough.

    The people doing KTM and ThreatLib will have to get precise numbers, but here a rough guess lets you gauge how viable a hybrid spec will be. It seems to be somewhere around 60, 120, 240. 240 seems enough to be a viable replacement for shield slam.

  12. #12
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    unless i missed something, the author of Omen is stating that TM is 21% increase per point. meaning a 63% mod? here is the post
    http://elitistjerks.com/520045-post1889.html

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    Oh, I forgot to crosspost from the WoW forums to here. Yeah, the threat mod for TM seems to be listed right in the data files:

    http://thottbot.com/test/s12295
    http://thottbot.com/test/s12676
    http://thottbot.com/test/s12677

    When I ran the test data looking for percentage increase, it matched up with 21/42/63 except for two cases.

  14. #14
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    So this is a multiplier. That actually means it scales... Heh. Hitting MS in Defensive stance while in DPS gear is definitely not a good idea with 3/3 TM. The aggro generated is going to be huge.
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  15. #15
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    That seems strange, I guess in Full DPS gear as a two-handed MS warr, in defensive stance, I could actually generate more threat than a prot warrior? Interesting. I wonder why my initial tests with crits didn't cause an increase in the %.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Turelliax View Post
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