+ Reply to Thread
Results 1 to 8 of 8

Thread: Combat Table Analysis

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Canadia
    Posts
    3,523

    Combat Table Analysis

    Background
    What we're really doing here is proving that WoW doesn't use a short-circuit (multiplicative) evaluation, then providing evidence for a table based (additive) combat system. Instead of going into a bunch of math theory and talking about Bayes' Theorem, we'll just talk a little math and then let the numbers speak for themselves. Here are our two methods, the first is the short-circuit evaluation, the second is a table:

    - Random to see if your attack misses {random(100) <= 5}
    - Random to see if your attack is dodged {random(100) <= 10}
    - Random to see if your attack is parried {random(100) <= 10}
    - Random to see if your attack is blocked {random(100) <= 10}
    - Random to see if your attack is a critical hit {random(100) <= 15}
    - If you get here, your attack is a normal hit

    - 000-049 = Miss (5%)
    - 050-149 = Dodge (10%)
    - 150-249 = Parry (10%)
    - 250-349 = Block (10%)
    - 350-499 = Critical Hit (15%)
    - 500-999 = Hit (50%)
    The fundamental difference between these two methods is that the first is conditional, and the second one is not. In the first method, you cannot possibly determine if an attack is dodged until you have determined that it didn't miss. You cannot determine it is a hit until you have determined that it dodn't miss, wasn't dodged, wasn't parried, wasn't blocked, and was not a critical hit. This is the key point -] none of the events are mutually exclusive. What does that mean? It's a variation on the classic coin flip problem. If I flip a penny, the chance of it being heads or tails is 50%. If I flip it twice, the chance of getting two heads in a row is 25%. You can't get two heads in a row if the first flip comes up tails; the chance of getting two heads in a row is conditional on the first flip's result. That is exactly what will happen here, following short-circuit evaluation. Let's see how and why.


    Results of a Non-Mutually Exclusive System
    To illustrate, I wrote up a simple little program. It's written in Lua, and if you copy and paste it then run it using Lua interpreter (lua-users wiki: Lua Binaries), it will give you similar results to what I present here:

    Code:
    local miss,dodge,parry,block,crit,hit = 0,0,0,0,0,0
    math.randomseed(os.time())
    
    for i=1,1000000 do
    	if (math.random(1,100) <= 5) then	
    		miss = miss + 1
    	elseif (math.random(1,100) <= 10) then
    		dodge = dodge + 1
    	elseif (math.random(1,100) <= 10) then
    		parry = parry + 1
    	elseif (math.random(1,100) <= 10) then
    		block = block + 1
    	elseif (math.random(1,100) <= 15) then
    		crit = crit + 1
    	else
    		hit = hit + 1
    	end
    end
    
    print("miss: "..miss.." "..miss/1000000)
    print("dodge: "..dodge.." "..dodge/1000000)
    print("parry: "..parry.." "..parry/1000000)
    print("block: "..block.." "..block/1000000)
    print("crit: "..crit.." "..crit/1000000)
    print("hit: "..hit.." "..hit/1000000)
    What this does is determine the result of a combat action following the short-circuit evaluation method, one million times, then print the results. It checks the 5% chance of a miss, then the 10% chance for a dodge, then 10% for a parry, then 15% for a crit, and then calls it a regular hit if none of the previous conditions are met. It gives the number of misses, dodges, parries, blocks, crits, and hits, as well as the percentage of total attacks that each one makes as printed results. Here are the results of one run:

    Code:
    	Count	Percentage
    Misses	50215	5.0215%
    Dodges	95482	9.5482%
    Parries	85364	8.5364%
    Blocks	76712	7.6712%
    Crits	104321	10.4321%
    Hits	587906	58.7906%
    We see here that using this method, we get 104321 critical hits on 1000000 attacks. That's 10.4%, not 15%. Where did the other 4.6% go? The problem isn't that we lost 4.6% crits, it is that the conditional method "loses" attacks as it progresses through the series of evaluations. If we look at the number of dodges, we see it is 9.6%, which is close to the 10% we said our dodge rate. But, we did a million iterations. It should be a lot closer to 10% exactly. How do we find the missing dodges then? Remember, we can't check to see if we dodged unless the attack was not a miss. There is no independence of events. That means the 50215 misses in our million attacks had no chance to be a dodge - so they don't count. Look at this: 95482/(1000000 - 50215) = 0.10053. We find the missing 0.4% by discounting the attacks that were misses and could not possibly have been dodges.

    This holds true all the way up the list. We can now find the missing 4.6% critical hits here:
    104321/(1000000 - 50215 - 95482 - 85364 -76712) = 0.15070

    We get 15% critical hits over ONLY those attacks that were not misses, dodged, parried, or blocked. Since we have it from Blizzard that you must get 15% critical hits over all attacks, which would be 150000 critical hits in this example, we prove that combat cannot be resolved by a short-circuit evaluation. Also note that if this was the method in play, you'd be getting short-changed on your dodges, blocks, and parries when something attacks you.


    Results of a Mutually Exclusive System
    Now we come back to the table based system. We generate one random number and look up what happens in the table. Because of this, any single check can be any result present in the table, with no conditions attached. This is a mutually exclusive system. Here is another little program:

    Code:
    local miss,dodge,parry,block,crit,hit = 0,0,0,0,0,0
    math.randomseed(os.time())
    
    for i=1,1000000 do
    	r = math.random(1,100)
    	if (r <= 5) then	
    		miss = miss + 1
    	elseif (r > 5 and r <= 15) then
    		dodge = dodge + 1
    	elseif (r > 15 and r <= 25) then
    		parry = parry + 1
    	elseif (r > 25 and r <= 35) then
    		block = block + 1
    	elseif (r > 35 and r <= 50) then
    		crit = crit + 1
    	else
    		hit = hit + 1
    	end
    end
    
    print("miss: "..miss.." "..miss/1000000)
    print("dodge: "..dodge.." "..dodge/1000000)
    print("parry: "..parry.." "..parry/1000000)
    print("block: "..block.." "..block/1000000)
    print("crit: "..crit.." "..crit/1000000)
    print("hit: "..hit.." "..hit/1000000)
    What this does is determine the result of a combat action by generating a single random number and looking up the result in the table, one million times, then print the results. It gives the number of misses, dodges, parries, blocks, crits, and hits, as well as the percentage of total attacks that each one makes as printed results. Here are the results of one run:

    Code:
    	Count	Percentage
    Misses	49984	4.9984%
    Dodges	100113	10.0113%
    Parries	99979	9.9979%
    Blocks	99951	9.9951%
    Crits	150316	15.0316%
    Hits	499657	49.9657%
    We see here that using this method, we get 150316 critical hits on 1000000 attacks. That's 15%. Similarly, our miss, dodge, parry, and block rates are 5%, 10%, 10%, and 10%. The results here are consistent with what we are told to expect by Blizzard, and are consistent with a table-based (additive) system
    Last edited by Satrina; 02-06-2009 at 09:51 PM.

  2. #2

    great analysis ;)

    just a question.

    are these values (5% miss, 10% dodge, 10% parry, 10% block, 10% crit, 15% hit) just ballpark values or is that the real chance ?

    iv'e rewritten this in vb



    Private Sub Button1_Click(ByVal sender As System.Object, ByVal e As System.EventArgs) Handles Button1.Click

    Randomize()

    Dim r As New Random
    Dim rn As Integer

    Dim miss, dodge, parry, block, crit, hit As Integer
    For a As Integer = 1 To 1000000
    rn = r.Next(1, 100)

    If r.Next(1, 100) <= 5 Then
    miss += 1

    ElseIf r.Next(1, 100) <= 10 Then
    dodge += 1
    ElseIf r.Next(1, 100) <= 10 Then
    parry += 1
    ElseIf r.Next(1, 100) <= 10 Then
    block += 1

    ElseIf r.Next(1, 100) <= 15 Then
    crit += 1

    Else

    hit += 1
    End If
    Next
    TextBox1.Text &= "non-independent hit calculation" & vbCrLf

    TextBox1.Text &= "5 miss: " & miss & " : " & Math.Round(miss / 1000000 * 100, 2) & " ~ " & Math.Round(miss / (1000000) * 100, 2) & vbCrLf
    TextBox1.Text &= "10 dodge: " & dodge & " : " & Math.Round(dodge / 1000000 * 100, 2) & " ~ " & Math.Round(dodge / (1000000 - miss) * 100, 2) & vbCrLf
    TextBox1.Text &= "10 parry: " & parry & " : " & Math.Round(parry / 1000000 * 100, 2) & " ~ " & Math.Round(parry / (1000000 - miss - dodge) * 100, 2) & vbCrLf
    TextBox1.Text &= "10 block: " & block & " : " & Math.Round(block / 1000000 * 100, 2) & " ~ " & Math.Round(block / (1000000 - miss - parry - dodge) * 100, 2) & vbCrLf
    TextBox1.Text &= "10 crit: " & crit & " : " & Math.Round(crit / 1000000 * 100, 2) & " ~ " & Math.Round(crit / (1000000 - miss - parry - block - dodge) * 100, 2) & vbCrLf
    TextBox1.Text &= "15 hit: " & hit & " : " & Math.Round(hit / 1000000 * 100, 2) & " ~ " & Math.Round(hit / (1000000 - miss - parry - block - crit - dodge) * 100, 2) & vbCrLf

    TextBox1.Text &= vbCrLf

    TextBox1.Text &= "we get " & crit & " critical hits on 1000000 hits, thats " & Math.Round(crit / 1000000 * 100, 2) & vbCrLf

    miss = 0
    dodge = 0
    parry = 0
    block = 0
    crit = 0
    hit = 0

    For a As Integer = 1 To 1000000
    rn = r.Next(1, 100)


    If rn <= 5 Then
    miss += 1
    ElseIf rn <= (5 + 10) Then '15
    dodge += 1
    ElseIf rn <= (5 + 10 + 10) Then '25
    parry += 1
    ElseIf rn <= (5 + 10 + 10 + 10) Then '35
    block += 1

    ElseIf rn <= (5 + 10 + 10 + 10 + 15) Then '50
    crit += 1

    Else

    hit += 1
    End If
    Next
    TextBox1.Text &= "independent hit calculation" & vbCrLf

    TextBox1.Text &= "5 miss: " & miss & " : " & Math.Round(miss / 1000000 * 100, 2) & " ~ " & Math.Round(miss / (1000000) * 100, 2) & vbCrLf
    TextBox1.Text &= "10 dodge: " & dodge & " : " & Math.Round(dodge / 1000000 * 100, 2) & " ~ " & Math.Round(dodge / (1000000) * 100, 2) & vbCrLf
    TextBox1.Text &= "10 parry: " & parry & " : " & Math.Round(parry / 1000000 * 100, 2) & " ~ " & Math.Round(parry / (1000000) * 100, 2) & vbCrLf
    TextBox1.Text &= "10 block: " & block & " : " & Math.Round(block / 1000000 * 100, 2) & " ~ " & Math.Round(block / (1000000) * 100, 2) & vbCrLf
    TextBox1.Text &= "10 crit: " & crit & " : " & Math.Round(crit / 1000000 * 100, 2) & " ~ " & Math.Round(crit / (1000000) * 100, 2) & vbCrLf
    TextBox1.Text &= "15 hit: " & hit & " : " & Math.Round(hit / 1000000 * 100, 2) & " ~ " & Math.Round(hit / (1000000) * 100, 2) & vbCrLf

    TextBox1.Text &= vbCrLf

    TextBox1.Text &= "we get " & crit & " critical hits on 1000000 hits, thats " & Math.Round(crit / 1000000 * 100, 2) & vbCrLf

    End Sub


    Last edited by pixel001; 01-07-2008 at 07:57 AM.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Canadia
    Posts
    3,523
    They're just pulled out of a hat for illustrating the point. Realistically we know that we have the base 5&#37; chance to miss, and bosses have around 5% dodge and 10-14% parry. Seems the dodge and parry numbers are tweaked by the game designers on a boss by boss basis. (And then because of the 3 level difference, add 0.6% to each of those.)

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Lowell, MA
    Posts
    34
    You guys make me feel safe when i go to sleep at night. FYI

    edit: ok, so that means that all those people on the forums(wow forums) talking about how things are multiplied, i.e. run speeds, talent point stacks like lethality with deadly deeds (30&#37; crit bonus*lethality*, and the 20% yellow dmg bonus on a target below 35% health*deadly deeds*) are infact wrong because teh combat table is additive?
    Just wanna make sure i'm not misunderstanding, and i certainly would like to know the truth behind the matter.
    Last edited by Arlana; 01-07-2008 at 11:21 AM.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Canadia
    Posts
    3,523
    A lot of things are multiplicative, the combat table is just not one of them. For example:

    Threat multipliers - defensive stance threat (1.3) and 5/5 defiance (1.15) multiply to make each point of damage worth 1.495 (1.3 x 1.15) threat.

    Mitigation - 15000 armour (55.6&#37 and defensive stance (10.0%) combine to make a 10000 point hit actually land for (10000 x 0.444 x 0.9) 3996 damage, or a total of 60.0% mitigation.

    I don't play a rogue, but I would expect that lethality and deadly deeds are multiplicative too. The damage done has nothing to do with the combat table; all the combat table would do is tell you whether it was a crit (and trigger lethality). If you hit for 1000 damage, then lethality would make it 1300, and then deadly deeds would take it to 1560.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    16,409
    yeh arlana, we can prove that threat multipliers are multiplicative too, and have. When Satrina, Fame, and Myself were testing for the new devastate threat values, we used 1.495 as the threat modifier and we were able to prove within 1-4 damage the threat caused by devastate. If in fact threat multipliers were not multiplicative our findings would've been much more off.

    But glad to see this Satrina, I'm sure someone will point out that you used simulated situations and WoW isn't simulated, blah blah blah, but from a logical standpoint, this makes 100&#37; truth and proves we have a single roll combat table.

    READ THIS: Posting & Chat Rules
    Quote Originally Posted by Turelliax View Post
    I will never be a kaz.. no one can reach the utter awesomeness of you.
    http://i.imgur.com/3vbQi.gif

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Lowell, MA
    Posts
    34
    That isn't exactly how lethality works because it's crit damage not total damage of a critical strike(my fault because i didn't provide full tooltip explanation of it). But thanks for the info, it was very helpful and answered my question ^_^.

  8. #8
    good post

+ Reply to Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts