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  1. #101
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    @compa: imo if you are happy with your shield, I'd save the badges for upgrades for other slots. I never got the badges shield, used sha'tar throughout kara, including MT'ing prince and nightbane until nightbane dropped his shield.
    **Give me a hug and I'll defend you with my life**
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  2. #102
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    A main tank friend (from another guild) of mine uses rend to help keep aggro on secondary targets, i have never really tried it as a tanking tool. Any tips on its effectiveness? Most of my raiders are aggro monkeys so i need to front load alot of hate and any help keeping secondary targets on me with a minimum of fuss would be greatly appreciated.

  3. #103
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    First, Thanx I will save Badges and see what else can I buy

    Second.
    IMO you should instead use Thunderclap, I've never used Rend tho it sounds like it worth the try but only if you need to dump rage.
    If your friends are pulling agro they are doing something wrong, then only player that might pull agro from the other targets is the healer and with an ocasional thunderclap you can keep that under control.
    Anyways, if you want to refresh the agro on the other targets maybe you should make the macro that sunders the target on mouse_over (or something like that) 'cause if you have the right talents then it will cost you 9 rage (1 less than rend) and produce more instant threat (my guess, I haven't made the numbers)

    well that's my opinion but maybe a more experienced tank can enlight you better (and maybe enlight me too )

    --EDIT--
    Instead of sunder armor you could use Devastate (much more agro than sunder) unless yoru target is CC'd
    Last edited by Compa; 12-18-2007 at 09:53 AM.
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  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shevaresh View Post
    OK, here's a few questions. These are more for my wife than for my character; the only one I have that can tank is my 30-something druid.

    Important Information:
    -Level 70 Paladin Tank, Full Prot spec (No holy/Ret talents)
    -Not uncrushable yet (+-82% with Holy Shield, working on getting Libram)
    -Defense is over 490
    -Spell hit rating is 0

    OK, first question: Sun Eater or Continuum Blade? Sun Eater will help make her uncrushable, but Continuum will help her maintain good aggro (a big issue). The % above is with Continuum Blade.

    Second question: We were running (standard non-heroic, keying someone friendly with Lower City for Kara) Slabs last night and the DPS (including my 'lock) kept pulling aggro. We survived, so it wasn't a big deal. There is some debate as to why we were pulling aggro, though. She was able to tank Heroic Mech and not lose aggro, so why did she lose it here? The best guess I have is that the standard instance mobs have such low DPS that her reactive threat wasn't able to build the way it would in a harder instance. Would removing gear help, or should she get a set of + spell damage armor or something for less difficult instances? Should the DPSers keep a better eye on threat?
    DPSers should always be responsible for keeping an eye on the threat meter. My wife is a shadowpriest, and what she has done is stacked Omen & Recount on top of each other, and during a fight, Omen shows and Recount is hidden. After the fight it switches.

    Here's the Important Information you mentioned:
    -Level 70 Paladin Tank, Full Prot spec (No holy/Ret talents)
    Full Prot < Prot w/ some Ret. Ret talents make the prot tree more effective. There are some really bad prot talents.

    -Not uncrushable yet (+-82% with Holy Shield, working on getting Libram)
    That would help, but its not what's causing problems with aggro generation, is it?
    -Defense is over 490
    -Spell hit rating is 0
    Why? You need spell hit to tank just like a warrior needs some melee hit to tank.

    OK, first question: Sun Eater or Continuum Blade? Sun Eater will help make her uncrushable, but Continuum will help her maintain good aggro (a big issue). The % above is with Continuum Blade.

    Simple answer - if you're a pally tank that's having trouble with keeping aggro, turn your spell dmg up. Check out the pally tanking guide on maintankadin (there's a link from the top level of tankspot), look at basic training and Tankadin 101. Its at the top, its the sticky.

    Sun Eater is an awesome looking sword, and continuum blade is pretty weak looking, but if you're a tankadin, then you need to have a good amount of spelldamage to hold aggro.

    Also, rotations play a big part in being a tankadin.
    Quote Originally Posted by From Main Takadin
    Putting it together: A typical pull
    1. Prep Seal of Righteousness
    2. Avenger's Shield, break line of sight/have other players counter if the pull involves casters.
    2a. If CC is necessary (and it usually won't be), apply it after the AS pull.
    3. Judgement of Righteousness on the first kill target.
    4. Consecrate, Holy Shield, up a Seal, in this order (to insure timers are appropriately staggered).
    4a. If more threat is needed, Seal of Righteousness
    4b. For more threat on a longer fight, Seal of the Crusader (Judged immediately, then up another seal).
    4c. If more mitigation is needed, Seal of Light (Judged immediately, then up another seal).
    4d. If the mobs are runners, Seal of Justice (Judged, up another).
    4e. If it's going to be a long fight, mana-intensive fight, Seal of Wisdom (Judged, up another).
    5. Keep Consecrate and Holy Shield up, rotating seals and Judgements as necessary. Try to maintain active Judgements on as many targets as possible, rotating weapon swings between judged targets to maintain them.
    6. Throughout the fight try to move your targets a little bit as they die. It can be difficult to loot 12 corpses stacked directly on top of each other.
    If you're having trouble holding on to mobs then just keep using Righteousness over and over, to maximize your threat building.

    Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft is the build a friend of mine uses now, to maximize his threat so that dps can go nuts faster.
    (Gives you 5% free parry and you can judge more frequently to keep your threat high, for 12 points in ret. Also makes your seals & judges cheaper.)

    You should always drop a consecration early as you reasonable can, as it keeps putting out threat even if you're stunned or afk. For the same reason you should always have retribution aura on.

    Pop seal of righteousness, do your captain America imitation, judge right, holy shield, consecrate, seal right, and go get some coffee. You can burst out a good bit of front end threat if you start out this way.

    The way we do it is we wait for the consecrate to go off then we attack. Its a good visual way of knowing when he's hit the mob a few times and has some aggro built up.

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pheargus View Post
    A main tank friend (from another guild) of mine uses rend to help keep aggro on secondary targets, i have never really tried it as a tanking tool. Any tips on its effectiveness? Most of my raiders are aggro monkeys so i need to front load alot of hate and any help keeping secondary targets on me with a minimum of fuss would be greatly appreciated.
    The only purpose of rend is to activate Blood Frenzy.

    If you look on Satrina's "A Guide to Threat" you'll see that it doesn't have a innate threat listed, so the threat on it is (If the ability deals damage, the threat generated is: (innate threat + damage dealt) * stance modifier * buff modifiers).

    Using Gorehowl at ~2k+ ap (buffed) rend usually ticks for around 33ish. Also, it takes up a debuff slot, so if there are dots on it (I understand that he's just maintaining it, so probably not) it could knock something more valuable off. Honestly when I'm OT'ing and just holding a mob in place, my rotation is TC, Demo, Shield block, Revenge, Sunder x5, then I just Heroic strike and keep my debuffs (and shield block) up. The main purpose of having a OT is to keep a mob busy, and I consider it my job to not only hold the mob, but to mitigate the maximum amount of damage I can so that I'm not hurting my healers either. When the MT is ready for my mob he come and taunts it off me, then I go back to zerker and pull out the big axe. In the case of multiple targets then TC & Cleave is best, rotate and dish out sunders when you can.

    Rend does pitiful damage at best, the only reason I even have it on my bar is so I can turn Blood Frenzy on right away, so the other dps'ers I have with me (1 rog, 1 fury, 2 hunts) can have the extra 4% right away.

  6. #106
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    Need help from the tank professors!

    I switched from the [Item]Vindicator's Haulberk[/Item] to the [Item]Breastplate of Kings[/Item]. This dropped my defense from 501 to 482. The BPoKs has three open slots. I would like to use them to bring my defense back up to 490 and then stack stamina.

    The question:

    How much +defense do I need to add to increase defense to 490 (8 points)?
    Last edited by SionaAmanThul; 12-20-2007 at 08:36 AM.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shevaresh View Post
    OK, follow up questions. My guild has entered Kara and dropped Attumen, but not Moroes. The healers we had weren't able to keep up with damage taken (we've since gotten 2 new holy spec pallies). Any suggestions on gearing the tanks to reduce damage taken would be good.

    Guild tanks:
    The World of Warcraft Armory
    The World of Warcraft Armory
    The World of Warcraft Armory

    Loviatar was off-off-healing, CCing and off-off-tanking during the Moroes fight. Sokim and Triv were tanking, a Resto Druid and Elemental Shammy were main & off-healing.

    I'm not sure how trustworthy the Armory links are right now, but i know they're accurate to at least the Attumen fight.
    Pallies can bubble themselves to remove the effect of Garrote. I'm not sure about other people.

    Sokim: Don't wear dps shoulders. Regem & rechant to be real dps shoulders, and just buy some 67+ green shoulders of stamina off the AH. You don't need more def, as you're already higher than 490, so get your hps higher. The Warchief's Mantle that Copa mentioned is okay, but I'd rather have more straight hps to manage garrotes and spell dmg instead of having more dodge. While he's upgrading his shoulders, he should also look at getting a new trinket with either def stats or hps on it. The green charm with on-use dodge has to go. Finally you could remind him that not every socket bonus needs to be met. Sometimes its just better to have all +12 stam gems. Only gem for def if you're below 490. Outside of that, he will gear up nicely via badges and drops. His mace is a poor man's version of the King's Defender, so that should hold him till he gets an epic MH.

    Triv: Next time he has a free respec, move that point from Improved Shield Wall over to Anger Management. The over time gains are better. At the same time, I wouldn't spend 15gp to do it. At 515 def he could look at gemming for more stamina if he wants to be more durable. His weapon could have executioner on it for faster threat gen if he wants it, or mongoose for more avoidance. Again with the trinkets, he doesn't need a pvp trinket if you're trying to raid (unless he needs it to get into the building). He seems pretty stout though.

    Loviatar: While I think Spell Warding < Improved Judgments, that's just my opinion. As far as gear goes, I think Lovi needs some spelldmg. 68 is just plain low. A different gem in her shoulders might be appropriate, 5 parry rating/6 stam is not as useful as +9 spell dmg might be for holding aggro (if you're comparing the two directly) or just putting in a 12 stam gem...but I think she wants the +3 def slot bonus. Try the AH for a [item]Cloak of Eternity[/item] (it's crafted). Her chest slot could also use a boost, [item]Chestguard of the Stoic Guardian [/item] is just about perfect for a paladin, at a cost of 75 badges (even if you only down Attumen 75 times you can still get it, although I think you'll be getting it sooner than that). In the mean time hit Steamvaults and grab a [item]Breastplate of the Righteous[/item] to tide you over. Its a few less stamina, but the 20 def on it will be more helpful. Since her bracers aren't enchanted, I'd say have her put spell dmg on them (again to up her spell dmg to help her hold aggro better). She may want to think about having her gloves rechanted to spell dmg too, unless she finds that she's not having any troubles holding aggro. Obviously she's cleared Shadow labs at least once, I'd say she should head back and do it several more times, to get the [item]Greatsword of Horrid Dreams[/item], or grind rep on Lower city and get the [item]Gavel of Unearthed Secrets[/item] (I'd suggest the greatsword, as the gavel is really slow). I'd look up the Shatt Rep shield as well, and see if that would be an upgrade too, but keep in mind that her def is still low, and needs to get up a bit. Finally, trinkets... [item]Darkmoon Card: Vengeance[/item] is to awesome for tankadins. Also, [item]Adamantine Figurine[/item] from (hey, again?) Shadow labs second boss is pretty nice too. Tankadins need 516ish (off the top of my head) to get to uncrushable with their shield block up.

    That's it for gear commentary. I'm curious about when you said "Loviatar was off-off-healing, CCing and off-off-tanking during the Moroes fight." Paladins should never be fighting the moroes adds in a tanking capacity. If you have 2 tanks and 1 tankadin, the weaker (in terms of tps) tank and the tankadin should be on moroes, with the tankadin doubling as the moroes tank's healer. The reason for that is that a couple of the adds have the ability to mana burn your tankadin, and will make it difficult for him to kill them. Put your best tps tank on the adds to let the dps burn the adds as quickly as possible. The other thing I'm wondering about is 3 tanks for Kara?
    Our group set up varies, but here is the baseline:

    MT: Tankadin (12k ac, 12k hps, 520 def)
    OT: Feral druid. (cat if not needed to tank)
    OOT: dps Warrior. (Me, although I can and have MT'd most of the fights. I generally don't have to do Illhoof.)
    Healer: Holy/disc priest
    Healer: Holy Pally
    Healer: Holy Pally
    DPS: Shadow Priest
    DPS: Warlock
    DPS: Rogue/Shaman/Mage
    DPS: Hunter/Mage/Warlock
    (2 of our dps slots can vary)

    The fights go down like so:
    Attumen: Beartank takes horsey in cat gear till Attumen shows, picked up by Tankadin. Once they merge then Tankadin finishes fight as MT and beartank goes to kitty form.
    Moroes: Tankadin takes Moroes. 2 mobs get shackled by the priests. Beartank OT's on moroes (right after mt is gouged, bear can flip and stack hots on tankadin, then back to bearform), while warrior tanks adds. Priest die first, then palladins, finally warriors (add kill order). Hunter traps 1, which is the second to die. You don't have to kill all the adds, but we usually do.
    Madien: Such an easy tank and spank its not even funny. Priests & Pallies have to be on the ball for Holy Fires.
    Opera:
    Wizard of Oz: Look it up on wowwiki.
    Red Riding Hood: tank & spank, Tankadin tanks.
    Romeo & Julian: Tankadin takes Romeo, Warrior tanks Julie. DPS Julie down (to 15-20%) first then Romeo second, watch for (and interupt) Julie's big heal.
    Nightbane: we have the shadowpriest drop a fearward on the tankadin before the battle starts, then the holypriest as soon as that one is used up. If we keep it up as much as is possible, just to make the fight easier. Since the 2.3 changes Nightbane shouldn't wander far.
    Curator: Have the tankadin and the warlock on the curator, everyone else on the sparks. Make sure the lock drops an amp'd curse of doom (if he has it) on the curator during the appropriate phase. You want it to go off during Evocation for awesome dmg. Shadowpriest can stop dps on the spark as soon as evocate occurs to put vamp embrace & touch on the curator and then unload to get the most mana & hps back for the party.
    Shade: Really not even a fight, just a race to see how high you can get your dps. Having 3 tanks with you on this one could hurt you. Make sure you interrupt anything that's not arcane missiles. Drop the elementals when they spawn (just leave one banished till it despawns) then keep burning on him. If you're at 40% life at 70% mana you should be able to finish him np. Just make sure you're on top of the interrupts.
    Illhoof: (we do shade first for the teleport in case of a wipe) We have the tankdin take Illhoof, and the warrior tank his pet. Pet usually dies 2-4 times from WW & Cleave, but provides nice rage gen for the Warrior. Paladins should bubble if demon chained. EVERYONE should have a macro made for the chains.
    Netherspite: Interesting fight. Depending on who wants to do what, we usually have the tankadin & beartank trade the red beam, and the bear & warrior hold the green beam. Blue beam is traded around by the dps'ers....I really don't pay attention to that.
    Prince: Prince is usually really easy or really hard. It mostly comes down to where the infernals land. If they land good you might not have to deal with any, if they land poorly, you can be screwed from the get go. Tankadin handles Prince, but the key to this fight is to have a warrior in his dps gear in battle stance. If you can keep Thunderclap, demo & commanding shout up during Phase 2, prince isn't so hard. This is one fight where you won't need salv on any of your melee attackers, as they will have to run back and forth out of shadow nova, so you won't be attacking all the time.

    You may want to see if one of your warriors wants to go dps or dps/tank spec. If you're having trouble with downing moroes then there is probably 1 of 2 problems.
    1. Your dps isn't high enough to down however many adds you need to before you switch to moroes, and the healers can't keep up with the number of garrotes that stack up.
    2. You have the tankadin trying to tank adds instead of moroes, and is getting mana burned and can't keep up the threat needed to finish off the adds, and you end up with free adds.

    The Moroes fight is one of execution, not dps (I know it seems I said that its a dps race in #1, but let me explain). You have to keep the adds still until you're ready to fight them. You have to be able to do dps without overtaking the person tanking the adds. DPS'ers should be watching their Omen or KTM, not their dps meters. If a dps'er pulls an add of the add-tank, they are the ones who caused the wipe. You have to pace it properly, or you won't be able to finish the fight. Any add that you can shackle can be left that way for the whole fight. Any add that is freeze trapped needs to be killed.

    If you have 2 prot warriors, then have one of them (with the tankadin) handle Moroes, while the other handles the adds.

    As soon as the adds are down (however many you choose to kill), then whoever was on the adds needs to swap in dps weapons and go to town.
    Make sure to switch to battle/zerker stance when you do.

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by SionaAmanThul View Post
    Need help from the tank professors!

    I switched from the [Item]Vindicator's Haulberk[/Item] to the [Item]Breastplate of Kings[/Item]. This dropped my defense from 501 to 482. The BPoKs has three open slots. I would like to use them to bring my defense back up to 490 and then stack stamina.

    The question:

    How much +defense do I need to add to increase defense to 490 (8 points)?
    2.36 defense rating per defense skill, so about 19 def rating (18.88)

    Keep in mind that the character screen rounds up, so you could be at 489.5 and still be crit. I usually try to be at 491 def *yeah, I'm paranoid - sue me.

    You could do 2 +8 def gems & 1 +4def/+6 stam gem, and that should land you at just over 490 def.
    Last edited by Smaken; 12-20-2007 at 10:20 AM. Reason: Thought of Gems.

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  10. #110
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    1. Is there any difference between wielding a 1.5 speed 100dps dagger in my offhand and wielding a 1.5 speed 100dps sword in my offhand? (using WW, etc..)

    2. What is the exact formula for calculating the damage dealt by the main/offhand using WW in Berserker-Stance?

    thanks

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kav View Post
    1. Is there any difference between wielding a 1.5 speed 100dps dagger in my offhand and wielding a 1.5 speed 100dps sword in my offhand? (using WW, etc..)

    2. What is the exact formula for calculating the damage dealt by the main/offhand using WW in Berserker-Stance?

    thanks
    As far I can think of, if WW is normalized then the dagger takes a penalty (daggers being normalized at 1.7, vs the swords at 2.4). Other than that it would only matter if you had a racial bonus with one or the other (like swords or axes).

    As far as the damage from WW. "In a whirlwind of steel you attack up to 4 enemies within 8 yards, causing weapon damage from both melee weapons to each enemy."

    So, it should be Wpn Dmg for each hand. I'm not sure if its normalized or if the offhand penalty applies. Knowing blizzard they wouldn't make it as simple as the description implies.....
    Last edited by Smaken; 12-21-2007 at 08:59 AM. Reason: Did sword normilization from memory and got it wrong. Swords are normed at 2.4 not 2.6. Thanks Kav!

  12. #112
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    What i've found on Elitist-Jerks Forums:

    Assume: 3500AP extra (250DPS)
    Warglaive: 109.3DPS, 1.4 speed
    Syphon: 100.2DPS, 2.8 speed

    You have to use the 2.4 normalization factor to calculate the damage bonus from attack power, like this:
    (109.3*1.4 + 250*2.4) * 0.625 = 470.6
    (100.2*2.8 + 250*2.4) * 0.625 = 550.4
    Average difference then: ~80
    I don't quite understand the *0.625 ..

    Edited: german -> english *duh*
    Last edited by Kav; 12-21-2007 at 09:43 AM.

  13. #113
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    Boy, you strain my German skills - Such as they are....

    So, I went back to the patch notes, and looked up this in patch 1.8:
    Instant Attacks

    The mechanics of most instant melee attacks have been modified to improve item balance. Previously, instant melee attacks did damage based on the damage range of the weapon, plus a bonus for the player's attack power. This bonus was then multiplied by the speed of the weapon. As a result, slow weapons did more damage than was intended, and fast weapons were considered inferior by most players. We have changed the way the attack power bonus is calculated for instant attacks. This change does NOT affect attack power calculations for normal melee attacks. Instead of multiplying by the speed of the weapon, the attack power bonus is now multiplied by a fixed number pulled from the following table:
    o Two-handed weapons: 3.3
    o Daggers: 1.7
    o All other one-handed weapons: 2.4
    As a direct result of this, many weapons have shifted position in their relative power. In particular, many Epic (purple) quality items are now more powerful than slower Superior (blue) weapons.
    This change was not made to reduce the power of instant attacks, but to correct the relative imbalance of weapon itemization. At a given level requirement, epic quality weapons should always be more powerful than superior quality weapons.
    Please also note that all normal weapon swings will be completely unaffected by this change. The following abilities are affected by the design change: Sinister Strike, Ambush, Backstab, Whirlwind, Mortal Strike, and Overpower.
    So, WW is normalized, ergo the exact formula should be:
    Sword: (Wpn Dmg +AP bonus) * 2.4 = Dmg
    Dagger: (Wpn Dmg +AP bonus) * 1.7 = Dmg

    So, since they changed WW to use both weapons, the only question is does the offhand dmg penalty apply?

    So, It's either
    (Wpn Dmg +AP bonus) * (Weapon Norm Factor) = Dmg
    ((Wpn Dmg +AP bonus) * (Weapon Norm Factor)) * Off Hand Penalty= Dmg

    or

    (Wpn Dmg +AP bonus) * (Weapon Norm Factor) = Dmg
    (Wpn Dmg +AP bonus) * (Weapon Norm Factor) = Dmg

    I'm thinking about it and I don't see a huge dip in the second number that pops up (or rather, the numbers are pretty close), and since I'm using 2 2.6 weapons that are within ~6 dps of each other, if one was having a 40% reduction then the OH penalty should be more apparent.

    But to give you a specific answer to the first question you asked, using a dagger will not create as much damage when using instant specials (with the exception of Bloodthirst, which isn't normalized, as it doesn't require a weapon to use).

  14. #114
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    Thanks for your answers .. i didn't even notice that i'd written in german. Apologies

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    Quote Originally Posted by Icarus View Post
    Bump!
    Suggestions to improve the warrior class: http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...71649679&sid=1

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kav View Post
    What i've found on Elitist-Jerks Forums:

    I don't quite understand the *0.625 ..

    Edited: german -> english *duh*
    If you have the improved off hand damage talent maxed out, it increase your off hand damage by 25%

    So, you take your off hand damage, which is penalized to 50% of normal damage, and multiply 50% X 1.25 = 62.5% or 0.625 if you're using decimal instead of percent. Most people assume that if you're speccing dual wield then you're getting that talent.

    When I first got the talent, I had assumed (probably like most beginners) that I was adding 25% to my off hand damage. When I found out that was not the case I was rather pissed, but 12.5% damage for your off hand is not something you want to ignore, due to the rage gains and such.

    In any case, that is what the 0.625 (or 62.5%) refers to.
    I'm so tanky I get up at 5:40 in the morning.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Icarus View Post
    Bump!
    Basically you're asking is 20% more crit damage > 2% more dmg with a 2hander.

    Yes. By far.

    I'm wondering though, why go so far into fury with a 2hander? Why not use a 2h build like this one? You'd have more pvp/raid utility, and you'd bring Blood Frenzy to the table (4% more damage for everyone who's melee).

    Aside from that, what's your hit like? If you already have 9% hit, you don't need precision.
    I'm so tanky I get up at 5:40 in the morning.

  18. #118
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    Long time lurker, first time poster.

    My question is concerning FrR gear.

    A while back, I had the chance to go to Naxx and picked up [item]The Plague Bearer[/item]. With an 18 stam enchant, would it be a worthwhile addition to my tanking setup, or should I default to a higher stam/armor shield?

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    Hey guys. Can't find the definite source for "More than 2/5 Improved Demoshout is useless in PvE (without CoR)."
    Can anyone point me to that place? Thanks.

  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smaken View Post
    Basically you're asking is 20% more crit damage > 2% more dmg with a 2hander.

    Yes. By far.

    I'm wondering though, why go so far into fury with a 2hander? Why not use a 2h build like this one? You'd have more pvp/raid utility, and you'd bring Blood Frenzy to the table (4% more damage for everyone who's melee).

    Aside from that, what's your hit like? If you already have 9% hit, you don't need precision.
    Bloodthirst scales better than Mortal Strike. The equalization point is somewhere around 3000 AP, so if you're above 3000, Bloodthirst will deal more damage. Plus, you get Improved Berserker Stance.

    I'd go with Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft personally.
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