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Thread: Effective health sweet spots

  1. #1
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    Effective health sweet spots

    There is an ongoing debate amongst tanks on whats better to gem up and enchant. Is stamina better than dodge? This can not be answered without adding a context in which you can compare these stats. You want to both avoid being killed before healers can react and avoiding making the healers go oom before the fight ends.

    In order to prevent being killed before the healers can react you need enough stamina, armor and shield block to soak up (physical) dmg.

    If you can define what a sufficient healer reaction time is, and how much damage you can be hit for during that time, you can also determine how much effective health you need before you can start stacking other stats like avoidance or threat.

    Lets first agree on what is sufficient healer reaction time. I propose 3 seconds, as this is the cast time of a greater heal.

    So, what im asking you guys for is data on how much a certain boss can dish out within 3 seconds timespan. If we know that we can determine effective health needed for each boss. Then you know what you need to gear up to for that specific bossfight.

    Edit: nothing scientific about the values below. Just some values put forth.

    Archimonde: around 21k
    Morogrim : around 17k
    Last edited by swipe; 09-25-2007 at 06:13 AM.

  2. #2
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    Archimonde can perform 21k of damage to tank in a 3 second frame if you are unlucky.

    In summary, TBC raiding is easy. 9/10 encounters can be summarized with 1 phrase. Stay out of the fucking fire.
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  3. #3
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    I believe something like this is a long[ish] term project.

    As far as I'm aware, we're waiting for the ThreatModelling code [which also models DamageTaken] to be uploaded and then results will be added to the database.

    It'll be a few weeks at the least till it gets working.

  4. #4
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    Also depends if you want to assume that at least one blow crushes (which sometimes happened as to me yesterday when Gorefiend ate both shieldblock charges and then roundhousekicked my with a crushing blow for 11k before SB was up again).

    Otoh purely reactive healing is healing pre Naxx. Its a pretty outdated model nowadays (due to the changed relations between the heal output, the stamina pool and the potential damage a bossmob can inflict).

  5. #5
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    Yesterday against Morogrim:

    hh:mm:21 seconds : Morogrim Tidewalker hits you for 5400 (x damage blocked).
    hh:mm:21 seconds : Morogrim Tidewalker's Tidal Wave damages you for 4200.
    hh:mm:22 seconds : Morogrim Tidewalker hits you for 7500 (crushing).
    You die.
    Raid dies.

    And that's only 2 seconds :x

  6. #6
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    Maybe we can forget about the quantitative way of doing this and instead just put some numbers up that you feel are apropriate? Its always a start.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Narshe View Post
    Archimonde can perform 21k of damage to tank in a 3 second frame if you are unlucky.
    not anymore apparently, patch notes state that they changed his mechanics so he can't chain skills on you i believe.

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  8. #8
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    There is definatly a sweet spot between EH and Avoidance, but stacking all stamina is not always a bad thing. I still put 12-15 stam gems in all of my gear and always will a large % of my avoidance is not ever going to come from gems.

    Not having enough avoidance can lead to your shield block being burned to fast and eventually some big crushing blows, unfortunatly this is mostly luck based. So there is for sure a good sweet spot but that is going to change based on your healers and tank.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kazeyonoma View Post
    not anymore apparently, patch notes state that they changed his mechanics so he can't chain skills on you i believe.
    This is correct the fight was changed so he can not destroy people anymore.

  10. #10
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    I decided that 15k unbuffed hp was my sweetspot for current content (Gruul down, working on Mags, retired from Kara) I'm sitting at 15,214 right now which I believe, for my place in progression, is pretty good. I am looking to get my dodge over 20% (19.38% now) without losing too much HP.

    Replacing +8 stam on gloves w/ +15 agi
    Replacing +120 armor on cloak w/ +12 agi

    that should do it and leave me over 15K and with 16.7K armor. Add a little crit too.
    your hat may be nice, but I have the little white tank top that says Legendary right across my boobs. I win. (or more correctly, H wins)

  11. #11
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    Well my guild has Magtheridon on farm and I cant die in 3 secs with as low as 14k unbuffed, in my experience.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    I decided that 15k unbuffed hp was my sweetspot for current content (Gruul down, working on Mags, retired from Kara) I'm sitting at 15,214 right now which I believe, for my place in progression, is pretty good. I am looking to get my dodge over 20% (19.38% now) without losing too much HP.

    Replacing +8 stam on gloves w/ +15 agi
    Replacing +120 armor on cloak w/ +12 agi

    that should do it and leave me over 15K and with 16.7K armor. Add a little crit too.
    15k at that point of progression is probably unnecessary. I'm at 15,3 right now and working on Archi/Bloodboil to give a reference and in general, its quite sufficient. If I die, I die from such kind of burst that 1k HP more wouldn't save me anyways. Which is true if you are going für T5 content and sport 14k HP. Most gibs come from those nasty parry/crush combos nowadays. There isn't much in the EH departement you can do about it (except for really stacking but that will in the end dry your healers up pretty quickly). Of course avoidance will come with gearing up anyways which will allow you to stack 12/15 stam gems everywhere. If I stacked my gem slots with avoidance, my threat generation withouth WF would take a deep dive.

  13. #13
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    I don't really know where else to go. I could get some +hit for more threat but my DPS is really going to have to pick it up before that becomes necassary. The only other option is to go for more avoidance and if I can get the value in converting over, I will do some. I picked up some dodge with the neck off Maiden and dropped 5 stam from the JC neck.

    I don't see how I can have too much EH. I get a steady stream of rage, I take less damage per hit and I give my healers a wide cushion. Most of our failures come from lack of execution, not simply losing the tank. You can have 30K hp or 50% dodge but if your healers all stand in cave ins or ranged can't learn2cubeclick, it doesn't matter.

    15k was a personal goal, something I could reach with a little creative manuvering and farming off the progression track. My avoidance is a little low but not too terribly much so I think but I am all ears if yall think I should ease up on the EH a little and go for a little more avoidance.
    your hat may be nice, but I have the little white tank top that says Legendary right across my boobs. I win. (or more correctly, H wins)

  14. #14
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    I just took the liberty to armory you...I guess switching out trinkets is probably the place you can look for. I don't know whether you own a pocket watch, its a very nice trinket to greatly increase your chances for survival or to proactively ease the load of your healers if you are on the move for example. Its passive stats are very nice as well. The Autoblocker is nice as well but since you don't have threat problems, its not really necessary. Getting an Adamantit Figurine might be an option, 32 def rating is pretty decent and will be needed for Hydross anyways. In the end, having large cussions is nice but having at least the option to increase your avoidance should be your next goal for gearing up. Some fights almost scream for it (e.g. MT on Karathress).

  15. #15
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    Heh, the Pocketwatch is like my white rhino....I can't seem to get my hands on it. I would definitely love to have it, though. I will probably go for the Tier 4 chest piece as well...not necassarily 100% of the time, but it offers alot of the stats I lack...at least have sacrificed up until now.

    I am not willing to give up too much, I am pretty stubborn, but the low avoidance numbers have been bugging me a little. In any case, I know for certain I should be able to stand up to any T4 or really any T5 boss equipped like I am. I could certainly improve between here and there but I am not slacking.

    I am looking at building an avoidance set.
    your hat may be nice, but I have the little white tank top that says Legendary right across my boobs. I win. (or more correctly, H wins)

  16. #16
    No chance for the stopwatch now sucka!

  17. #17
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    Heh, while it is true I have retired my tank from Kara, I will have opportunities to fill in here and there...I know a certain bald headed priest that once again, has shot himself in the foot and passed all the gear upgrades to everyone else (though still pwning the healing meters) that is getting together a little hit squad to blow through one night a week and I may be helping with that.

    Actually, he invited my druid and I wanted to heal against him but I thought it was better for my other group, being stocked on tanks and having one of our healers flake out, to swap in my druid there.
    your hat may be nice, but I have the little white tank top that says Legendary right across my boobs. I win. (or more correctly, H wins)

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