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Thread: Some thoughts on raiding from a casual RL

  1. #1
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    Some thoughts on raiding from a casual RL

    your hat may be nice, but I have the little white tank top that says Legendary right across my boobs. I win. (or more correctly, H wins)

  2. #2
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    I was just reading that, actually.

  3. #3
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    Oh good god.

    I almost swear he's in my guild.

    --snoopj

  4. #4
    As the GM of a guild in your exact position Horacio, I empathize. I also appreciated the read as I know it's not just my guild that's struggling. It's very difficult to try to raid with a casual guild where progress takes a back seat priority to friendships and [hopefully] fun.

    Can I ask if Lothar is a low pop server? I know that's been one of my big problems. My server is very low pop and every time I get a consistent roster set and think we'll start to make progress I watch a few of them decide to transfer off for "greener pastures". This has totally halted my progression as I have to recruit and re-gear the newly vacant slot. As an example, I MTed the alliance first Gruul kill on my server almost 5 months ago with my guild. I've since been through 3 guild reforms and have yet to kill any boss past that.

    As far as performance goes I see it too, though very rarely do I ever see a dps class below me. Have you tried talking to some of the under-performing members privately after the raids? I've found that to be a very effective way for me to help boost their performance or help change their attitude if they "think" they know what they're doing. It seems to have been much more effective than calling them out in public and hoping embarrassment will work as negative reinforcement. My guild is also relatively young, so I do have that on my side. Many of them are afraid to disappoint and will come back and try doubly hard the next time if talked to nicely and given encouragement.

    If you ever figure out how to remedy attendance problems I'd love to hear suggestions. That's my biggest burden right now, and quite frankly I don't know how to fix it.

    Anyway man, you're not alone in your struggles. There's alot of us out there going through the exact same things.

  5. #5
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    that's tough, my 3rd kara group is like that, most of the time filled with last minuters or guys who are about to pass out to sleep and i bug em to come. Soemtimes you gotta just roll with what you got and make the best of it. =T

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  6. #6
    Great post H

  7. #7
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    Lothar is a full, original release server. I've been playing on here (aside from my 3 month vacation) since August 05.

    This is the damage meter from Gruul tonight. Its been matched with others in the raid for accuracy. One of the warlocks died and got a battle rez. One of the huntards died at the end. The MS warrior died early and usually is top 10 in DPS.
    your hat may be nice, but I have the little white tank top that says Legendary right across my boobs. I win. (or more correctly, H wins)

  8. #8
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    sorry the pic is so big

    I am the MT, Graff is the OT.
    your hat may be nice, but I have the little white tank top that says Legendary right across my boobs. I win. (or more correctly, H wins)

  9. #9
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    Horacio, two-parter.

    First, if you want to repost that full post here (and the responses), I think a lot of readers would be greatful.

    Second, if you host that image in our Galleries (use Upload and Attach beneath the smilies box) you will make me very happy (and you won't break the table!).

  10. #10
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    Cider: ah, sorry bout that I will edit that to be a little more sccomodating to the site.

    EDIT: Erm...I can't seem to fix it....I think I DID break it...doh!

    Joan: Yes. I will admit I have a certain bias against ret paladins as I have had poor experiences in the past with them about like most people have with hunters in general. At this stage, I can't argue with 10th on the meter and some raid utility.

    I posted this on the my guild forums. I hope it serves to embarrass people into doing something about it. We had both our guild's raid groups together in vent prior to the raid and the GM and I and the RL for the other group spoke at length about dragging dead weight. They are killing Gruul and chain wiping on Magtheridon currently, maybe a step ahead of us on Mags. They are facing the same issues.

    Frankly, this has little to do with tanking and strays from the theme of this website. Eh, sorry about that. Thank you for indulging me. My stats are comperable to tanks in much more advanced content....I have done all I can do and perhaps that only adds to the frustration. Its not as if half the raid is running around in greens and blue quest rewards either. Those finishing down the meter are in Karahzan groups and have been through Prince and most of the optional bosses. The damage meter is the only way to quantitatively show a piece of whats going on, there are far more issues at play here and I don't want to frame my frustrations as soley based on that.
    Last edited by Horacio; 09-07-2007 at 05:24 AM.
    your hat may be nice, but I have the little white tank top that says Legendary right across my boobs. I win. (or more correctly, H wins)

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Frankly, this has little to do with tanking and strays from the theme of this website. Eh, sorry about that. Thank you for indulging me. My stats are comperable to tanks in much more advanced content....I have done all I can do and perhaps that only adds to the frustration. Its not as if half the raid is running around in greens and blue quest rewards either. Those finishing down the meter are in Karahzan groups and have been through Prince and most of the optional bosses. The damage meter is the only way to quantitatively show a piece of whats going on, there are far more issues at play here and I don't want to frame my frustrations as soley based on that.
    Raid leading and guild leading have been popping up all over. It's not out of place at all; in fact, we're trying to accommodate it, and you'll see some site changes to that end.

    It's a good read. Will comment more in a bit!

  12. #12
    I really enjoyed your post. It's largely the same situation that we are in as a casual raiding guild. About the same progression, 25 nice people, 15 excellent players, and about 10 bringing up the rear.

    I'm also in a bit of a bind when it comes to making those 10 players play better. Mind you, it's not always slacking, or being unprepared, so in that sense, posting meters and embarrassing them, won't be productive.

    As in, they're already trying, and working their butts off, and doing what they can... Just what they can do isn't much.

    Sometimes it's a gear issue, but that's to be expected. Some of our newer locks have literally twice as little +damage as our veteran locks, so there's nothing to do for them but wait as they gear up.

    In other times, it's simply a skill issue. We have a rogue, who while potted and flasked up the wazzoo, deals at best half as much damage as the other rogues. He's also equally geared.

    Recount has a nifty little feature that gives you the skill usage breakdown for every person in the raid. It's really easy to see (if you have understanding of the class) if someone's not 'doing it right', or simply has a bad rotation.

    The trick is to find the way to approach these people, and explain what they are doing wrong, what they should do differently, without making them feel bad or get defensive about it. Easier said then done.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joanadark View Post
    is that a ret paladin at #10?
    lol that caught my eye as well
    The most stressful, yet provides the most gratification..
    Tanking <3

  14. #14
    I'm embarrassed!
    Embarrassed that I died and let that darn Mutilate rogue beat me at the end. >,<

    Now quit yer bitchin and get back to filling my loot bucket!

  15. #15

    Heya Horatio ^.^

    I've been following Horatio's story with interest through several forums.

    Horacio, these meters are fascinating. Have you thought about whether this isn't so much an individual issue, as a guild issue? Look at those colors - none of the mages is performing up to their potential, and oy the warlocks! It really looks like the group as a whole is deficient in knowledge and leadership on those particular classes.

    You have guild resources outside your group of 25 (boggles my mind!). Is there anyone among the under-performing classes who seems motived: someone who shows up repaired, on time, with consumables? You might go a long way towards solving your problem by hooking them up with a mentor from the other guild team.

    I did this just recently with one of our hunters. We knew the entire class wasn't quite performing up to par, and one of them came to us and said "Hey, I can only ever seem to put out about 450 dps - but I know hunters can do more. Can you help me?"

    Honestly, we couldn't help him with the specifics... but I did know I could help find him the right tools. I researched some EJ threads, and linked some official forum posts for him. But then I asked one of the hunters in our server's top guild if she would have the time to talk to him. She asked for a WWS parse (are you using those? they're a huge motivator) and set up a vent conversation with him. Now he's topping 800 regularly in the same (Kara level) gear, and trickling that knowledge out to the rest of our raiding hunters.

    The trick is to find the way to approach these people, and explain what they are doing wrong, what they should do differently, without making them feel bad or get defensive about it. Easier said then done.
    Part of this foundation, I'm convinced, needs to be set beforehand. I'm a big believer in The Carrot Principle. Myself and our raid leaders always try to find at least one thing that went well in each attempt, and praise it. Sometimes this is a person (Great job spotting those infernals!) and sometimes this is a group effort (Nice job hurrying back and rebuffing - now we'll have two tries before the respawn!).

    It sounds touchy-feely, but it was a pretty calculated choice. Especially in the kind of guild we are (adults playing for fun, and a bit for progression) people aren't going to be motivated by not having someone yell at them. They're motivated by being good and wanting to be better, by accomplishment. And maybe a little peer pressure.

    We're not where you are in progression, so take the advice as you will. But these were some of the first things I thought of when I saw those numbers, and I hope they help.

  16. #16
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    Yes, Ygrez has been ret for a very long time.

    Hi, I'm Horacio's wife : )

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