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Thread: Threat cycle

  1. #1

    Threat cycle

    Just working on my warrior and curious to the highest TPS cycle assuming say a single trash mob pulled without misdirect.

    What I'm looking for is generally which abilities to queue up first and maintain that cycle to maximize threat.


    Example would be something like:
    bloodrage > gun pull > shield block while mob is coming > first hit > shield slam > revenge ( when possible ) > sunder 1 > shield block > repeat.

    I realize that's probably not the best order considering cooldowns and rage, but that's what I'm looking to learn. And forgive if this is a generally known dumb question, just started tanking on my warrior.

  2. #2
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    Pull -> agro -> blood rage -> Shield Slam (if imp BlR) -> etc.

  3. #3
    Welcome to the forums.

    To answer your question without writing a narrative: It depends.

    For a single-mob trash pull, use Bloodrage if it's available. A threat cycle such as:

    Shield Slam -> Revenge -> Sunder Armor -> Repeat

    should serve you fine. Add in Heroic Strikes when you have a Rage surplus; just be careful not to blow too much Rage on them -- it's very easy to do when you have a fast weapon.

    You may have noticed the apparent synergy between Shield Block and Revenge. Ignore it -- Shield Block costing 10 Rage nullifies any advantage to threat you may gain from using it to activate Revenge. Instead, use Shield Block to avoid Crushing Blows, and when you're getting hit hard and just want the block for mitigation (good example are the big Bog Lords in Heroic Underbog right before the last boss).

    I should mention that that cycle is not optimal. Unfortunately, there's no such thing as a universal threat cycle that will outperforms all others. It varies with the situation and the player (gear/stats).

    Edit: Have fun tanking on your Warrior. I've found that it's a bit more... involved, than tanking on a Paladin (I play both ).
    Last edited by Concordia; 08-15-2007 at 06:39 PM. Reason: Clarity

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Concordia View Post
    To answer your question without writing a narrative: It depends.
    Not really. If you are in a high rage situation (more rage than you can use), you should always use the highest threat move you have available.

    Your answer got me thinking about whether the relative ranking of our talents ever changes, so I did some work. I looked at the threat for Shield Slam, Devastate, Sunder Armor, and Revenge under various value of critical strike (5% - 30%), Attack Power (500 - 2000), Shield Block Value (100 - 800), Weapon Speed (1.6 - 2.7) and Weapon DPS (87.5, 97.5, 107.5). Except for abnormally low AP and crit, the following ranking always held:

    (1) Shield Slam
    (2) Revenge
    (3) Devastate
    (4) Sunder Armor

    When AP and/or crit is very low, switch Devastate and Sunder Armor. When raid buffed, you should never have to make this switch; a battle shout, blessing of might, or even blessing of kings should put devastate on top.

    So your Threat Cycle Should be:

    Shield Slam, Revenge, Devastate, Devastate

    This will fill every GCD with the best available move.

    Heroic Strike is "on next attack" and should be used on each swing. If you do all of this you have achieved the highest possible threat cycle possible.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Happee View Post
    Not really. If you are in a high rage situation (more rage than you can use), you should always use the highest threat move you have available.
    I have to slightly disagree with that statement... even in a High Rage situation there are hills and valleys. To generate the maximum TPS you'll have to be constantly monitoring your rage bar.

    To save myself a lot of reposting of things I've already said, here's my take on it:
    The Golden Rotations - How to Tank Situations as a Warrior - TankingTips.com

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by veneretio View Post
    I have to slightly disagree with that statement... even in a High Rage situation there are hills and valleys. To generate the maximum TPS you'll have to be constantly monitoring your rage bar.

    To save myself a lot of reposting of things I've already said, here's my take on it:
    The Golden Rotations - How to Tank Situations as a Warrior - TankingTips.com
    I stand by my statement. When you are getting lots of rage, this cycle will generate maximum threat. If you know an "infinite rage" cycle that is better, let me know.

    I think that your post has some good advise, but from a mathematical perspective, it isn't optimal.

    Here are two rules that you will need to work hard to convince me are wrong:

    When you are generating more rage that you can use, use the highest threat move available. This mean SS every cooldown, with each GCD filled with Revenge, and 2 devastates. Use Heroic Strike every swing. There is no way to produce more threat.

    When you have less than maximal rage, use the ability that is the must efficient use of rage available. These are, in order:

    Revenge
    Shield Slam
    Sunder Armor (if specced for imp version)
    Devastate
    Heroic Strike

    For trash I wear a Shield Block Value / very low avoidance set, so I always have enough rage for the cycle that I gave. I use Heroic when I am +40 rage. With Bosses, I always use Shield Block, so worst case scenerio it's SB + revenge until I feel I can afford a SS. Only when SS is used each CD do I move to Sunder Armor.

    If you would like, I can provide the math to prove this is optimal.

  7. #7
    Nice! Some good advice here and exactly what I was looking for. Specifically the debate. Interestingly enough I saw this occuring tonight, which coincidentally was my first warrior tanking experience in Kara.

    When AP and/or crit is very low, switch Devastate and Sunder Armor.
    When using devastate after 5 sunders I would see less threat gain than if I just kept on spamming sunder, which suprized me a bit. Though devastate does a tiny bit of damage to the DPS pool, it seems smarter to raise the ceiling of threat higher so other dps classes can push harder.

    My crit and ap are quite low, even when buffed, and that is probably why. In general though I was rather impressed with the ease of building threat against the Kara bosses, assuming I build a threat lead to start with... I'm really going to struggle with aoe tanking though. It's far easier with a paladin.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aergis View Post
    Nice! Some good advice here and exactly what I was looking for. Specifically the debate. Interestingly enough I saw this occuring tonight, which coincidentally was my first warrior tanking experience in Kara.
    This has probably less to do with your attack power and crit rate, but with the fact that in Karazhan you do not get enough rage to use every ability without concern for its rage cost; to qualify as an unlimited rage situation, you need somewhere in excess of 1000 incoming DPS, and there's only one obscure boss in Karazhan that I can think of who qualifies for that (Rokad the Ravager, one of the random animal bosses; amusingly enough, he's probably the easiest fight in the entire instance).

    You really won't see a serious unlimited rage situation until you hit 25-mans.

  9. #9
    Finally getting around to replying to this...

    Mob Armour
    Weapon Type
    Talents
    Rage Efficiency

    Those are all things just off the top of my head that have the potential to change things up in regards to threat cycles.

    Example: My Devastate only hits for ~200 damage against the second boss in Steamvault (Mekgineer Steamrigger), using a King's Defender and with ~950 AP. Factoring in crits, in the long run that is still probably more threat than Sunder Armor. However, with my talent spec, Sunder Armor is 9 Rage and Devastate is 12. Considering that, using Sunder Armor the entire time on that fight would allow me to weave in more Heroic Strikes and in the end I'd likely generate more threat than if I was using Devastate. If I had infinite Rage in that situation, the 3 Rage would make no difference at all and Devastate becomes clearly better.

    My back-up weapon is a Dagger. Sometimes I wind up using it when my King's Defender breaks. Against lightly-armoured mobs, using Devastate with my Dagger still generates more threat than Sunder Armor, but only very slightly. Unless I have endless Rage, Sunder Armour becomes better once again. And against any mob with medium-heavy armour, Sunder Armor will out-threat Devastate.

    Also, I can't think of many situations where I truly have infinite Rage. Instead, it's like Veneretio described -- hills and valleys in Rage generation. Even against hard-hitting raid bosses, if you go for a short period of time (several attacks) without getting hit, you can go from a near-full Rage bar to empty pretty quickly.

    In fact, in a true infinite Rage situation, [item]Warp Splinter's Thorn[/item] combined with a Shield Slam->Revenge->Sunder->Sunder (full Heroic Strikes) cycle, will generate more threat than either [item]The Brutalizer[/item] or [item]The Unbreakable Will[/item] and a Shield Slam->Revenge->Devastate->Devastate (full Heroic Strikes) cycle.

    I think that making a blanket statement such as,

    "Shield Slam -> Revenge -> Devastate -> Devastate is the highest possible threat cycle" is wrong. The reason I think it's wrong is because it's made given assumptions that won't apply to every Warrior and to every situation. This is what I meant when I said "it depends."

  10. #10
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    My opening threat cycle is : Berserker Rage > Defensive Stance > Bloodrage > Shield Slam etc.

    Berserker Rage gives me a ~6-8s "infinite rage" buff (if I don't parry / dodge too much).

    I use a macro :

    #showtooltip Berserker Rage
    /cast [stance:3] Berserker Rage
    /stopcasting
    /cast [stance:3] Defensive stance; Berserker stance

    Quote Originally Posted by Concordia View Post
    In fact, in a true infinite Rage situation, [item]Warp Splinter's Thorn[/item] combined with a Shield Slam->Revenge->Sunder->Sunder (full Heroic Strikes) cycle, will generate more threat than either [item]The Brutalizer[/item] or [item]The Unbreakable Will[/item] and a Shield Slam->Revenge->Devastate->Devastate (full Heroic Strikes) cycle.
    I'm not sure but maybe my "maths" (very simple : no armor, no miss, no parry, no dodge) are wrong.

    Warp Splinter :
    46 heroic strikes / minute : ( 196 + 176 ) * 46 / 60 = 285,2 tps.

    BT / Hyjal :
    37 heroic strikes / minute : ( 196 + 176 ) * 37 / 60 = 229,4 tps.
    DPS : 100,3 - 71,5 = 28,8 tps

    WS - BT/Hyjal : 285,2 - ( 229,4 + 28,8 ) = 27 tps.

    40 sunder / minute : 301 * 40 / 60 = 200,67 tps
    40 devastate / minute : ( 101 + damage ) * 40 / 60.

    If damage > 240,5, then "SS > R > D > D" do more threat than "SS > R > S > S"

    Against Morogrim, with a naked [item]Mallet of the Tides[/item], my devastates do 256 average damage.

  11. #11
    It's a bit more involved, Luciolle. The easiest way to play around with different stats/talents is to download an Excel TPS sheet such as Threatdown.

    The formula for Heroic Strike threat is (ignoring mitigation):

    HS Threat = (Weapon_Damage + AP_Bonus + 176 + 196)

    And for Devastate (taken from Armstrong's Devastate FAQ)

    Quote Originally Posted by Armstrong
    (W ÷ 2) + (35 × S) - M

    where

    W = Weapon Damage (including bonus damage from Attack Power)
    S = Number of Sunders stacked on target
    M = Target's damage mitigation from Armor
    If you have 1H Weapon Specialization, you would multiply both results by 1.1.

    Assuming 0% mitigation, 0 Attack Power, 0% crit (as you have), and 5 Sunders stacked for Devastate, the threat calculations for a 60 second portion of a fight are:

    Heroic Strike (Thorn) = [(74 + 112) ÷ 2 + 176 + 196] × (60 ÷ 1.3)
    Sunder (Thorn) = (60 ÷ 1.3) × 301

    35,353.846 total Threat (Thorn)

    Heroic Strike (Brutalizer) = [(128 + 193) ÷ 2 + 176 + 196] × (60 ÷ 1.6)
    Devastate (Brutalizer) = [(128 + 193) ÷ 2 + (35 × 5)] × (60 ÷ 1.6)

    32,550.000 total Threat (Brutalizer)

    The Warp-Splinter Thorn generates 2,803.846 more threat than The Brutalizer -- 46.731 more TPS.

    Again, this is with 0 Attack Power, 0% crit, and 0% Mitigation on the target. For my own tests, I kept Mitigation constant at 30% and Crit constant at 10.50% and compared the values with Attack Power ranging from 1000 - 2000 (buffed). In all cases, the Warp-Splinter Thorn and a SS -> REV -> SA -> SA cycle produced more threat.

    There are a lot of variables that can change the threat values. However, no combination I could come up with resulted in The Brutalizer and a Devastate cycle out-threating the Thorn. I would suggest using a TPS sheet if you're interested in comparing different stats yourself, as it can get tedious doing it by hand.

    Finally, a note of warning: If you do end up using a TPS sheet, be wary when looking at Devastate threat values when you have a Dagger's stats typed in. Some sheets don't discriminate between Swords/Maces/Axes and Daggers, and treat everything as if it was normalized at 2.4 Speed (i.e. as if it wasn't a Dagger).

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