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Thread: Executioner vs. Mongoose: a preliminary view from the tanks' perspective

  1. #21
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    Now lets look at it from the persepctive of a dps warrior with Deep Wounds, Impale, and Blood frenzy or flurry.

    They get more value from crits.

    Say executioner is a 6% increase.
    Mongoose is 4% crit which is 4.8% more dps with impale. And more procs of their crit based abilities. Throw in the 2% haste (1% damage?), and youre at about 5.8% dps and more procs. Thats better than executioner, I would think.

  2. #22
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    On a somewhat related note, I have rough armor rating for VR after 5 sunders.

    The average unmitigated damage on revenge hits for 460. My revenges hit VR for 275 over 22 hits. The other warrior's revenges hit for 277 over 31 hits. Let's just split the difference and say we hit VR for 276 on average. That's a 40% damage reduction or ~8K armor @ 5 sunders.

  3. #23
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    How about a practical application view. Take the Gruul fight for example; the MT would probably prefer Mongoose for the extra armor and dodge cushion, the OT could go with Executioner as a more steady threat tool. This assumes the preliminary math is accurate and the correct use of the debuff with Revenge/Shield Slam. Just like gear sets or talent specs, certain enchants are applicable to the role of the player within a raid.

  4. #24
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    Executioner is effectively mongoose without the dodge or armor, imo.

    If the proc rate is the same that is.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Wartorn View Post
    On a somewhat related note, I have rough armor rating for VR after 5 sunders.

    The average unmitigated damage on revenge hits for 460. My revenges hit VR for 275 over 22 hits. The other warrior's revenges hit for 277 over 31 hits. Let's just split the difference and say we hit VR for 276 on average. That's a 40% damage reduction or ~8K armor @ 5 sunders.
    Good call on using Revenge to figure out armor Wartorn.

    Interestingly, on our last VR kill (and counting a few failed pulls :P ), I end up with an average 292 damage for 61 successful Revenges between myself and another warrior, including crits /2 (neither one of us has Impale). Mine averaged 294 and his 289. No Hemo rogue in raid either. This translates into 36.5% mitigation.

    I wonder where the 16 point difference comes from. The only things I can come up with is that either Sunder wasn't up quite as much for you guys, or the sample size is just too small?

    I guess for now I'll just average your numbers and mine and use that in the article.
    Last edited by Armstrong; 08-08-2007 at 03:08 PM.
    Armstrong
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  6. #26
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    Higher crit rate maybe?

    You need to find the average of the non critting revenges.

  7. #27
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    It's possible sunders weren't up, though I'm pretty good about keeping sunders up and active.

    ...

    Ok, so was digging through a bunch of WWS's and I found 290 revenges are on the high end and 275 on the low end. Maybe we are better off taking an average value, lets say 283?

  8. #28
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    It definitely would be the crit thats mucking up the results.

    How bout this formula so we can salvage the data...

    Average Damage = Crit% * 2 * Revenge base * Reduction + non-crit% * Revenge base * Reduction

    So let x = Reduction with 15% to crit.

    292 = .15 * 2 * 460 * x + .85 * 460 * x
    292 = 138x + 391x
    292 = 529x
    x = 0.551984877

    So just replace .15 and .85 with whatever your crit was during void reaver and you can get an approximation.

    Does that math seem about right?
    Edit: I think it is except the Reduction will be 1 minus the resulting X value. So ~45% reduction for Void Reaver.
    Last edited by veneretio; 08-08-2007 at 03:51 PM.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Crimsonstorm View Post
    Higher crit rate maybe?

    You need to find the average of the non critting revenges.
    Or count the crits for half their value, as I mentionned above.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wartorn View Post
    Maybe we are better off taking an average value, lets say 283?
    Yeah I added your averages and ours and divided by the total number of hits and ended up with 285. This takes VR's mitigation down to 38.080&#37;, or 7355 armor.
    Last edited by Armstrong; 08-08-2007 at 03:41 PM.
    Armstrong
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  10. #30
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    Something is funky with your WWS.

    You have 290 avg revenge hits for 24 hits(21 hits and 3 crits). That only comes out to 6960 damage, not 7900 damage.

    Edit : Nm, I was wrong. Apparently the 290 only includes normal hits. So the actual math is something like this.

    290*21 + crit damage = 7900

    Edit2 : So yeah, your normal revenges were hitting for 15 more damage than my normal revenges.
    Last edited by Wartorn; 08-08-2007 at 03:52 PM.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by veneretio View Post
    It definitely would be the crit thats mucking up the results.

    How bout this formula so we can salvage the data...

    Average Damage = Crit% * 2 * Revenge base * Reduction + non-crit% * Revenge base * Reduction

    So let x = Reduction with 15% to crit.

    292 = .15 * 2 * 460 * x + .85 * 460 * x
    292 = 138x + 391x
    292 = 529x
    x = 0.551984877

    So just replace .15 and .85 with whatever your crit was during void reaver and you can get an approximation. Does that math seem about right?
    I counted crits from my WWS for half their damage in the first place, so no correction needed there. I also ended up with a higher average than Wartorn, which tells me he probably didn't count crits at all, since WWS lists them separately and doesn't count them in the "average" value displayed in the summary.

    So far I'm pretty sure crits have nothing to do with it.
    Armstrong
    <Elysium>
    Burning Legion US

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Wartorn View Post
    Something is funky with your WWS.

    You have 290 avg revenge hits for 24 hits(21 hits and 3 crits). That only comes out to 6960 damage, not 7900 damage.
    Exactly what I'm saying above. If you hover above the "average" value, it tells you that it's not counting crits. This is probably to avoid things like Impale to offset the value of normal hits.
    Armstrong
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    Burning Legion US

  13. #33
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    what i am eager to find out is if executioner would stack with armor reducing trinkets if so potentially u could reduce armor ~1450 with icon of unyielding courage. considering your numbers for VR that would drop his AC down to ~6300 knocking his % reduction down quite a bit.

    Also when comparing execut. to mongoose for DPS. purposes the proc rat will generally be higher as not as many gcd's will be spent on debuffing Altho this will tend to lead to higher uptime for both enchants rather than favoring 1 over the other.

  14. #34
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    Ok, did gruul last night.

    Between our WWS and some of the WWS's I've foraged through, it looks like revenge hits for 315-320. I'm going to assume Blood Frenzy is up 75&#37; of the time, so it drops revenge damage to ~308 damage. That 33% mitigation from armor or ~5900 armor @ 5 sunders.

  15. #35
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    Being that ZA (where this drops) is confirmed for 2.3, we likely have a while to consider. For myself, I'm still using Thunderfury so Executioner probably would retrun less benefit as alot of my damage (and threat) is based on procs and SS damage. White damage is abyssmal. In addition, the haste boost = a few more TF procs. Granted, I'm stubborn and KD still sits in my bank growing rust. It will definitely get Executioner.

  16. #36
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    Was discussing this in vent last night, idea came up that it's not a buff at all and it only applies to that particularly swing of that weapon. Would have to have a pretty high proc rate if that were the case.

    We'll see.

  17. #37
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    idk cider i foresee a more utb like affect 10-15 seconds of goodness if it turns out to be a 1hit wonder then no one will want it. unless it has an amazing proc rate which i honestly doubt.

  18. #38
    Besides, would that mean Shield Slam never benefits from it?
    Armstrong
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    Burning Legion US

  19. #39
    This may be old news, but Wowhead now has Executioner in its database.

    [Formula: Enchant Weapon - Executioner]

    Executioner enchant with mats listing

    "Executioner" self-buff that causes "Your attacks [to] ignore 840 of your enemies' armor for 15 sec."


    For what it's worth, this confirms one half of the theorycrafting in this thread: the enchant procs a self-buff, much like crusader or mongoose, which applies to all attacks made while it is active. The other important piece of data Wowhead doesn't give us is the proc rate. Has anyone had the chance to play with it on the PTR?
    Armstrong
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    Burning Legion US

  20. #40
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    According to the comments on Wowhead from the ptr, the proc rate is similar to Mongoose and it does NOT stack if you have 2 weapons enchanted with it.

    The glow effect:


    The proc effect:

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