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Thread: Executioner Enchant vs. Mongoose vs. ?? (Haven't theorycrafted yet)

  1. #1
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    Executioner Enchant vs. Mongoose vs. ?? (Haven't theorycrafted yet)

    Executioner is the incoming new enchant; it will occasionally ignore 840 Armor on a target.

    My hunch -- given history with [item]Bonereaver's Edge[/item] and [item]The Night Blade[/item], is that this is going to be the most reliable proc-based enchant for a tank. The PPM will (from what I've read) be similar to Mongoose or Crusader.

    While Mongoose certainly isn't bad (I can't wait to try it!), the Haste is not as beneficial to a tank as it is to anyone else; also, the Crit is similar to proccing a proc; it isn't reliable in the short term.

    Executioner, on the other hand, reliably increases Shield Slam damage whenever it procs. This is why [item]The Night Blade[/item] was so powerful and why I replaced my [item]Thunderfury, Blessed Blade of the Windseeker[/item] with it so quickly. Given the number of people who used it for the same reason, it was probably the reason for the nerf on that item, too. Few enchants can boast an increase to Shield Slam.

    Further, Executioner becomes significantly more powerful with Sunder Armor, since Armor is a curved damage reduction formula. Couple in a couple debuffs and and this shoots up. I'm tempted to try the dagger out again with the enchant, even with it's nerfed proc rate, to see how it works out on raid mobs.

    Anyway, no numbers to show, no hard data. If anyone wants to put some together, feel free.

  2. #2
    I'm a big fan of [item]Formula: Enchant Weapon - Major Striking[/item]</SPAN> as a threat enchant for fast weapons, moreso than of [item]Formula: Enchant Weapon - Mongoose[/item] for the reasons you mentionned.

    Executionner definitely seems like a better "high end" enchant to dump a ton of mats into. Is that part of the 2.2 patch? Any info on how it's obtained?
    Armstrong
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    Quote Originally Posted by Armstrong View Post
    Executionner definitely seems like a better "high end" enchant to dump a ton of mats into. Is that part of the 2.2 patch? Any info on how it's obtained?
    It will be from Zul'Aman. I'm not sure whether they have specified whether it will be a random boss drop or some sort of reputation reward. Based on Mongoose/Sunfire/Soulfrost all being boss drops, I have a hunch that it will be similarly acquired, although I don't believe that there is any evidence pointing either way.

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    I wonder how is gonna work in pvp, i tried to do some pvp in the T6 gear in the PTR, and it was pretty awesome to see such big numbers again

    If i get King's this week though, i'm gonna start saving for Executioner ^^

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    I think it really depends. If you are a tank focusing on mitigation or threat, Tanks dont use mongoose just for threat, it does help generate threat but it is also mitigation. It would take alot of number crunching for this one there are so many factors to figure out which actually gives more threat.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paruhdox View Post
    I think it really depends. If you are a tank focusing on mitigation or threat, Tanks dont use mongoose just for threat, it does help generate threat but it is also mitigation. It would take alot of number crunching for this one there are so many factors to figure out which actually gives more threat.
    Given their similar proc rates and Mongoose's haste rating rather insignificant, this really isn't that difficult to compare.

    120 agility vs -840 Armor

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    Even the 120 agi is like proccing a proc like Cider said.

    You get some armor, dodge and crit.

    The dodge and crit are fairly small and they are both chances to do something. Crusader was a real increase in AP (esp when SS scaled with AP) and in MCetc... the healing was a fairly real amount.

    I'm very excited for Executioner. I think ignoring armor will give a very real benefit to aggro. (not to mention the implications for DW Fury and rogues)

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    ~650 armor = 1&#37; reduction (this is a huge assumption, be sure to point out if this is wrong)

    Making Executioner ~1.3% increase.
    120 Agility = ~4% to crit

    4% to crit > 1.3% increase in damage.

    There's a starting point.. now where are the holes
    Edit: The above is all wrong. My apologizes for quick posting.
    Last edited by veneretio; 08-07-2007 at 10:25 AM. Reason: Stopping the spread of mis-information ;)

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    Percentage of Damage Reduction with Armor isn't linear at all, that's the first and biggest issue, which shoots out the basis of your math.

    840 Armor against a target with 25,000 Armor isn't going to be that good. 1% would probably be pretty lucky.

    840 Armor against a boss that has been Sundered and has other debuffs or buffs reducing their Armor, on the other hand, could be pretty big. For instance, let's say that was the last 840 Armor the mob had. You'd be knocking off ~7.4% of their damage reduction (which, in turn, would be slightly more than 7.4% additional damage).

    Keep in mind that some bosses really are that low on Armor. Taking the extreme end, it takes minimal effort to reduce Aran to 0 Armor.

  10. #10
    Ok, here's some number crunching.

    The mitigation formula comes from this page on Satrina's site.


    Starting with a 73 mob with 20&#37; mitigation from armor after 5 sunders (to stay consistent with Ciderhelm's earlier theorycrafting examples).

    Based on the formula linked above, 20% mitigation on a level 73 mob = 2990 armor.


    After 840 armor reduction from Executionner:

    2990 - 840 = 2150 armor


    Mitigation for 2150 armor:

    2150 / (2150 + (467.5*73 - 22167.5)) = 15.237% mitigation


    Going from 20% down to 15.237% mitigation means a 5.953% increase in damage dealt while the Executionner buff is active. Note that the higher the mob's base armor, the less significant the damage increase will be due to the way the mitigation formula works.

    The proc rate will also have a big impact on the actual long-term DPS and threat increase. But if as a conservative guess we assume that the buff is active 50% of the time on average, then you get a little under 3% damage increase overall.



    EDIT: Executionner damage increase % versus various base armor values (level 73 mobs):

    10000 (45.537%) - 840 = 9160 (43.371%) = 3.977% dps increase

    5000 (29.481%) - 840 = 4160 (25.806%) = 5.211% dps increase

    1500 (11.144%) - 840 = 660 (5.229%) = 6.656% dps increase
    Last edited by Armstrong; 08-07-2007 at 10:58 AM.
    Armstrong
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ciderhelm View Post
    Percentage of Damage Reduction with Armor isn't linear at all, that's the first and biggest issue, which shoots out the basis of your math.
    Thanks for clarifying that, my bad.

    I've found a graph on wowwiki that looks rather accurate.


    So based on the above we need to find out a few things...
    1. Where is a standard mob's Armor at
    2. Based on that standard what damage increase can we expect from -840 armor
    3. Is that damage increase better than 120 agility (since both procs are the same)

    Now based on what I'm reading so far since we already have Sunder and potentially can use Night Blade then its going to be pretty rare for Mongoose to be better. My theory is that Mongoose will be better on trash because short fights won't allow you to maximize your sunders. (not that this particularly matters, but just make sure not to number crutch using easy Trash mobs as your examples.. this really has to be based on More Difficult trash mobs and most importantly... bosses.)
    Last edited by veneretio; 08-07-2007 at 10:34 AM.

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    I think the threat modifier associated with the debuff is the biggest factor for it. Sure its nice to decrease armor even more and increase overall dps, but most of the times, dps is holding back based on threat, not on their potential to dps harder. If the proc generates a fair amount of threat and proc's often, then It'd outdo Mongoose anyday.

  13. #13
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    So Executioner procs +X% dmg. (What is X?)

    Mongoose procs +4% dmg (from crits), 2% haste (2% more autoattack/heroic strike damage, so probably almost 1% overall) +4.4% dodge, 240 armor.

    Executioner would have to be near 10% more damage before I'd consider it, since mongoose is about 5% with dodge and armor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kazeyonoma View Post
    I think the threat modifier associated with the debuff is the biggest factor for it. Sure its nice to decrease armor even more and increase overall dps, but most of the times, dps is holding back based on threat, not on their potential to dps harder. If the proc generates a fair amount of threat and proc's often, then It'd outdo Mongoose anyday.
    Has there been word that a threat modifier will be associated with this proc? (I highly doubt it will because otherwise only tanks will be able to use it)

    The decrease in armor = increase in damage = increase in Threat which is Cider's motivation behind this thread I think

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    Anyone have any WWS's to confirm the damage reduction?

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    The Dodge and Armor are great. For Damage Reduction, there's no question that Mongoose wins that, but as a general rule I carry two weapons. In my case, King's Defender, Decapitator, Thunderfury, and The Night Blade (in the past this would have been Thunderfury, Crul'Shorukh, Eskhandar's Right Claw).

    I keep one weapon with the top Damage Reduction enchant. This would be King's Defender, to stack on the goodness.

    I keep the other weapon with the top Threat enchant. This would be any of the other three.

    The question for me is which is a better Threat enchant for my Threat weapon.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wartorn View Post
    Anyone have any WWS's to confirm the damage reduction?
    The enchant isn't out yet. Zul'aman enchant.

  18. #18
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    Ah, I thought he compared the enchant to those other items listed BECAUSE those gave some sort of innate threat with it, and thus was hoping this enchant did the same. My mistake.

  19. #19
    FWIW, I've added the damage increase for a few different base armor levels in my previous post.
    Armstrong
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  20. #20
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    Armstrong, would you be interested in providing a more comprehensive post (covering the full subject of Executioner/Mongoose)? I can update it to a new webpage and get it promoted on the frontpage as well.

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