Paladins as Tanks

[Nicki]

hmm his gear is very poor...

10k uncrushable is reachable pre karazhan (there are guides...WoW-Europe has a nice one by a paladin named Zoe who has uncrushable% on many items pre karazhan), if your determined and have time on your hands you can reach 11.8k uncrushable 12k armor (not sure cant remember armor lets just say i didnt care ^.^ till now..)

He could OT midnight, tank trash but would have problems on bosses having so little avoidance. I remember getting up to curator and even doing romulo pre nerf(i think) with a crushable paladin lol..Sadly hed need all the gear your warriors are going to need and more..im inclined to say not a good idea =(.

[Klimpen]

In all honesty, I've never minded or felt hinder by the hp gap.

It's small enough that it's flavorful, a distinguishing factor. ...

Reading through this thread, I saw this comment and disagreed.

A Warrior in equal tanking gear will have ~1200 more health than me. This translates to around 3000 Effective Health. A 10% gain is extremely significant, at any level. While this percentage difference will drop, 3000 Effective Health essentially equates to a half-Teir of progression.

This is, in my opinion, the thing that makes Tankadin's competing with Prot Warriors an uphill battle. We have to find at least 1/2-Teir of gear in Sta, before we're equal. Not to mention, the extra 45% avoidance.

[Nicki]

And how many warriors actually gear to max effective health? but yes i do feel hindered by the HP gap..adding an extra Sta trinket and 1200 HP would put me on 15200 HP, in a sense looking at the tank on the most progressed guild alliance side on my server id have 1200 more hp and a bit less armor and avoidance..but instead of being as good as or even near to im 600HP below at 13.5kHP =)..its a much bigger difference than if i were a warrior...

However saying that i still like and prefer paladin mechanics more thank god for premades on the PTR i didnt want to tank on a warrior after that ..

Though having a semi stronger uncrushabillity tool does make me feel better. A warrior i respect on my realm said something to the extent of 'Shield block is hard to keep up all the time, most bosses hit too fast or have special melee attacks as well' Though the weakness is you can still be crushed between rebuffing but ive seen this with warriors as well..except they have to rebuff every 5 seconds in most cases vs 10 =)..The hp difference is a little unfair well yes but i prefer this play style...

However the problem is no matter how hard i work on my gear a warrior with lesser gear will out gear me =\...

[Klimpen]

An interesting post Joanadark, I enjoyed reading it.

I agree with many of your points, Paladins have a much more stable intake of damage. However, during progression fights, it's better, in my opinion, to maximize your Effective Health (Armor, Sta and even Block Value to a lesser extent). It's extremely difficult to have a comfortable amount of Effective Health in new content. Avoidance is awesome when you've got a comfortable amount, but until that point, I would concentrate on increasing Effective Helath over Avoidance gains. Within reason of course, but if you're staying uncrush and have the choice between an equal iValue of Sta/Armor or Avoidance, I'd take the Sta/Armor the majority of the time.

As you said, reliable intake of damage is key. Spike damage could, in an extreme case, be a long period of avoiding attacks (Dodge/Parry/Miss) followed by a slight-burst, which while mitigated (all of the attacks blocked) could kill you if your healers noticed that you wern't taking damage and concentrated on healing the others in the raid, and wern't fast enough in healing you. A specific example, but it could happen.

Lets say you had two sets of gear. Once was an avoidance set, the other an Effective Helath orientated set. Both have an average intake of damage from an unnamed boss of, say, 5k DPS.

The Avoidance set would take more damage per hit, less often but with streaks of good/bad avoidance. The average amount of damage taken within a section of time, could be totally different to another.

The Effective Health set would take less damage per hit, more often, more regularly. The average amount of damage taken within a section of time, would be fairly similar to another, in comparison to an Avoidance tank.

Sure, you could get lucky as an Avoidance tank, and take quite a bit less damage than an Effective Health tank. But you can't rely upon taking average damage. It just adds an element of randomness I'm not comfortable with. Effective Health adds a reliable amount of damage reduction.

All of this being said, I still support an intelligent mix of Sta/Armor and Avoidance. Losing 1% dodge for 5Sta is stupidity. 8Dodge Rating for 12 Sta is a solid decision (Except when you'd lose uncrushability).

[Concordia]

Paladins have a much more stable intake of damage.

I think that depends on the circumstances, Klimpen. Warriors have more base mitigation than Paladins (10% vs 6%), as well as more base health. Where Paladins have a chance of pulling ahead against raid bosses is through Crushing Blow avoidance. 10 Holy Shield charges vs 2 Shield Block charges can be significant, and in cases where it is, you're completely right in saying that the Paladin will have a more stable intake of damage. But the unfortunate reality for Paladin tanks is that there aren't many bosses that attack more than 2 times in a 5 second period -- especially with Improved Thunderclap down, meaning Shield Block effectively becomes the equivalent of Holy Shield. One encounter that I can think of where this isn't the case is Morogrim Tidewalker. Tidewalker will attack more than 2 times in a 5 second period, even with a 20% attack speed reduction, and any Warrior tank will eventually get hit with a Crushing Blow. As a result, a Paladin tank will end up being an easier target to heal. Prince Malchezaar would be another good example, but because he dual-wields, a Warrior with a good set of avoidance gear and the proper buffs can stabilize the damage just as effectively. However, any time a Warrior can reliably keep Shield Block active, the greatest advantage of a Paladin tank becomes nullified and the extra mitigation/health of Warriors pulls out.

It's extremely difficult to have a comfortable amount of Effective Health in new content.

My assumption used to be the same until not long ago. I did a check of maximum effective health possible across all instance tiers (link), and found that there wasn't much of a difference. The greatest gains a tank makes in transitioning from, say, T4 to T5, is in avoidance and not effective health. This is why when looking at a tank with significantly better gear, you might be surprised to find that he/she isn't leaps and bounds ahead of you in effective health.

[Aaesop]

This is getting to be quite the interesting read Although I must say theres alot better facts being brought to the table than whats seen at the wow forums lol

[Klimpen]

Wow. I guess I'm wrong then Concordia.

To respond to the second part of your post first, I honestly hadn't realised how little effective health gain there is between gear teirs. One thing I think could be added to your linked post, is the avoidance/block values at each Tier, just to show the improvement (If you can't be bothered or are too busy or w/e, gimme a PM and I'll get onto it).

Discounting mechanical (lag) or human (missclick) error, Paladins are, in my opinion, better at smoothing damage in smoothing damage than Warriors. The are cases, although rare, where a warrior will take a crushing blow. Through a Parry, Special ability (I'm unsure if they can crush, I know that they can use a Block charge though) or whatever, there are times when a Warrior is not uncrushable.

Though it's yet to be touched upon, I thought I'd go into it, as I've been thinking quite hard about Tanks from a healers perspective. Let's just say, that the Tank has been lucky, and has avoided all attacks for the last 15 seconds (Rare, but possible. Mabye a 1% chance (Generous)). As a healer, I would be hesitant to continue healing the said tank, as to save mana. However, slight burst, say attack->parry->attack->parry->attack in the space of 2 attacks, could kill a tank. This would be much less likely to happen if the healers were concentrating on healing the tank, even though they're OH'ing. But if they've made a decision to save mana, by not healing the tank, it could cause a wipe. The point of this example is that the Tank's main job isn't to reduce how often you get hit, but to reduce how much you get hit for.

Two tanks could take 20k damage over 20 seconds.

Tank A, takes 8 hits for 2.5k damage each.

Tank B, takes 4 hits for 5k damage each.

Tank A, most likely took each attack about the same distance from each other attack (~2s gap). There could be a period where damage is reduced for a breif period, or increased for a breif period, but any increase isn't going to be significant. The amount of damage taken over any period, is likely to be close to the Damage Taken per Second. This is much more reliable than Avoidance Tanking.

Tank B, could've taken each attack equidistant, or close together. That 20k damage could've happened in 10seconds. There could be dry spells, where you don't get hit for a signicant period. Just as likely, there could be periods where you get hit after hit, without avoiding anything. The amount of damage taken over any period could be quite a bit higher, lower or close to the DTPS for the fight. This is less reliable, but ~1/2 the time better, than EH Tanking.

In my opinion, at higher gear levels. Paladins become better EH Tanks than warriors. As we can be relied up to smooth damage to a greater degree, especially in the case of a Parry-Attack scenario.

[Narshe]

Do you think that Tier5-6 paladins should avoid spec in Reckoning? 4x2 1.60 attacks increase the chance of the boss parrying multiple then killing the tank.

[Klimpen]

Do you think that Tier5-6 paladins should avoid spec in Reckoning? 4x2 1.60 attacks increase the chance of the boss parrying multiple then killing the tank.

Could be interesting to see the added damage taken. I wouldn't have a clue how to do that though.

[Nicki]

Well no because thats like telling warriors not to shield slam or devastate both of which can be parried...paladins have fewer melee based attacks and reckonning is a fair ammount of threat (whitedamage is about 100tps with a 41 dps weapon using evolve's threat spreadsheet).

The issue is speccing out of reckonning and going for weapon expertise 'might' reduce burst damage..murphys law....

[Alixander]

In general I dislike Reckoning. It provides an approximately equal bonus in threat generation compared to other similar talents, such as Improved SoR and Improved 1H, but at the cost of only activating when you're hit (and by that I mean hit and said hit does damage), and by increasing (albeit a minor one) the chance that the enemy will parry.

My biggest beef has always been the fact that it's a "I must take damage for this ability to activate" type abilities. To me these are bad because as you continue to increase your gear quality your overall avoidance will probably go up. The more avoidance you have, the less times you are hit for damage, meaning fewer chances that abilities like these will activate. I would rather have something that gives a smaller bonus full time than something that activates pretty much at random.

As for Weapon Expertise, the jury's still out on whether it actually lowers enemy parry chance, but I figure it's worth it just for the increased chance to hit, since the current belief is that Avenger's Shield is based on your physical to hit chance, and it's always really bad when AS misses.

[Nicki]

Baring in mind Holy shield will mean you block all hits, they are infact still counted as hits.

According to morn's tank sim. Redoubt was active 20% of the time but provided no actual block. So with that said reckonning is probably the single best way to increase threat, reaching improved SoR would be next and 1h spec is a must.

If you gear to effective health theory you will be hit more by hit i mean blocking more attacks and thus you will be benefitting more from reckonning. Not being hit isnt always good or gearing more avoidance isnt always good, for warriors it is but for paladins its a threat negative, either way the talent is very nice for grinding as well as the fact that each reckonning swing procs SoR so you gain quite a fair ammount of threat from it =).

You will never not be hit but you will feel reckonning not proccing as much but when it does it is very nice and currently theres not much you can do maybe getting 3/5 imp sor well that wouldnt be that good and id miss out on 300~ armor that could be supplied by a holy paladin but generally is not.

[Concordia]

Replying to Klimpen:

Special Attacks performed by mobs cannot crit or crush, but they can consume Shield Block/Holy Shield charges. The most dangerous combination of attacks for a Warrior then would be something like, Special Attack -> White Attack -> White Attack, immediately following the use of Shield Block.

Parries are another thing that can potentially be fatal, and inevitably a Warrior will get hit with a crushing blow in a situation where a Paladin wouldn't; in the long run, a Warrior will take more crushing blows than a Paladin, but Paladins will experience them as well due to the quirky duration/cooldown of Holy Shield. The difference lies in frequency. As long as a Warrior can reliably keep Shield Block active -- even with the occasional crushing blow, a Warrior will have a steadier stream of incoming damage than a Paladin.

The reason is indirectly related to Shield Block, but a large part of it is differences in base mitigation and base health. It's compounded even more by few bosses being able to penetrate Shield Block every 5 seconds. The fact that any Warrior at level 70 with a decent Prot spec can remove Crushing Blows from the attack table, even while naked, means that he or she can immediately start working on building up his/her effective health, while a Paladin in the same situation will be forced to spend a lot of time reaching and maintaining the minimum of 72.4% combined avoidance/block before being able to do the same.

All of these things combined result in Warriors being able to mitigate damage more effectively than Paladins, even with the every-now-and-then crushing blow. The only exception is when a boss mob can consistently break through a Warrior's Shield Block charges -- both Paladins and Druids become superior tanks in those situations.

In my opinion, at higher gear levels. Paladins become better EH Tanks than warriors. As we can be relied up to smooth damage to a greater degree, especially in the case of a Parry-Attack scenario.

I find the exact reverse to be true: As gear improves, Warriors become more efficient while Paladins gain extra survivability (effective health) and additional threat. The key distinction is that Paladins are finally able to do what Warriors could do from the very beginning -- stack Health/Armor, while the Warrior is effectively past that stage; they can begin looking at gear which boosts their avoidance and threat, all while maintaining enough Health to push new content. The extra avoidance means Shield Block becomes more reliable -- more attacks are avoided, fewer charges are consumed, and the Warrior can mitigate damage even better than he/she could previously. Going hand-in-hand with this is gear that improves Weapon Skill, such as [item]The Brutalizer[/item] and [item]Gauntlets of Enforcement[/item], reducing the chance of parries and further stabilizing the Warrior's intake of damage.

I believe that T6 content is where Paladins truly start to shine as tanks, but at the same time I don't think they ever out-pace Warriors in survivability/mitigation. In their current state and with the gear that is available to them, I see Paladins as having slightly inferior mitigation to Warriors, but at the same time having the greatest threat potential of any tanks. And that combination might not be such a bad thing.

[Concordia]

Regarding Reckoning...

The extra threat is nice, but several of the prot builds that I've tried on my Paladin don't have it. I don't consider it an essential talent. I believe the same to be true of Avenger's Shield -- it's awesome for 5 mans (Heroics included!), but has limited utility in raids outside of AoE situations.

As far as threat generation goes, I don't think anything can beat a Sanctity Aura build. 0/40/21 happens to be my favorite.

[Aaesop]

There are about five encounters I can think of off the top of my head where this spell is invaluable for single-target boss tanking.

There's quite a many times I'll throw it out even aoe tanking, In karazhan especially when pulling the aoe groups on the way to moroes etc. Some of the casters might straggle back when you pull them down the stairs, etc whatever. Its nice to be able to go up there to them a bit, fling it out there to throw some nice threat out.
I mean I find it especially true in raids where you really really don't have to pay attention to mana at all pretty much. Especially with aoe, your getting healed alot whether small heals or otherwise.
Lastly its lovely to throw out at a boss to really have a great foothold start on threat. People can say that raids are full of experienced good players, but even those players could crit right off the bat or maybe just dps a bit too early just on accident. There's lots of variables but nonetheless nice to huck out there for some nice initial aggro.
Alot of times even with single mob tanking as I pull it back and deem it to be out of danger of bouncing to other targets, ill throw it out like I said.
As far as the reckoning debate goes, I love it. I find it to be of great utility if you use it in creative ways. Theres been times I've been in 5mans and just from mitigation I'm going through mana. If I see reckoning proc I'll throw up wisdom and fill up real fast. Aggro loss is never an issue for me from this. There's some people that dont buy into stacking vengeance but it's another nice utility way to stack it up, with or without. This will hold especially true once the new patch comes. Burst holy dmg you shell out if you already have a 5 stack up. It makes it pretty tempting for me knowing if I have 5 up and reckoning procs that I'll get some nice burst in. But then again its my views on it and not necessarily the best or anyone elses, its just what I do.
I never really have quirky situations with Holy shield. It's always worked out great for me.
With the issue of warriors stating up and paladins stating up. There's always the issue of mana. In some instances you have to make sacrifices here and there on int in terms of tank stats. In a dream world we'd have holy spec amounts of mana but it just doesn't happen, You trade one big number for another.

[Luciolle]

If by naked you mean "with 490 defense".
Otherwise, no, warriors are just as fully crushable as anybody else.

By naked, he means "with a shield, a 5/0/10 spec and shield block".

My warrior's naked stats are :

• Miss : 5,80%
• Dodge : 4,85%
• Parry : 10,80%
• Block : 10,80%

• Crush avoidance : 32,25% - 29,05 without Anticipation
• With Shield Block : 107,25% - 104,05 without Anticipation

[Crimsonstorm]

you can't parry without an equipped melee weapon.
your miss will be lower than that when facing a level 73 boss mob, as will your dodge.
I forgot about base block. ill give you that one. Even so, there will still be a non-negligible amount of crush left on the combat table.

regardless, "naked" is an unnecessarily dramatic phrasing.
this is a tangent though.

That 104% total (vs 70) is sufficient vs a 73 mob to be uncrushable.

It could be rephrased: "My warrior, naked expect for a mining pick and low level grey shield equipped, is uncrushable with shield block"