HS cost you more than 9 rage. You are forgetting the rage you lost from your HS eating your white swing.
Actually I didn't....you are correct that because no white hit = no rage generation, however neither does devastate, ss, revenge,etc.......
Point is; if you choose to spend 12 rage on a devastate with paultry threat over HS, you are making a mistake. Don't take my word for it; test it yourself. In this OP's case this is definitely the case.
Btw, I spam HS, am never aged starved; and constantly ask my DPS'ers to pour it on
Last edited by maintanker; 07-31-2007 at 04:45 PM.
Some quick math.
Assume 10 white swings with 1.6 speed weapon = 16 seconds. Y rage gained. X threat gained.
1) HSx10 and zero white swings = 90 + Y rage used. 1960 (innate) + 1760 (bonus damage) + X (white) threat
2) Devastex10 and 10 white swings = 120 rage - Y rage used. 1010 (innate) + 1750 (bonus damage) + X/2 (devastate damage) + X (white) threat
The rage breaking point is 1.5 rage per swing. Unless you're generating less than 1.5 rage per swing, devastate is more efficient.
The threat breaking point is 146.5 threat per swing. Unless you are generating less than 146.5 threat per swing, devastate is again, more efficient.
Can someone double check that?
that looks good Wartorn.
and to maintank, your assumption about devastate/ss/revenge/ not generating white rage gen is wrong. heroic strike consumes your next white hit, and replaces it with a heroic strike. All of the ones you listed don't consume your white it, and instead just instant attack inbetween your white hits. THAT is where devastate outdoes heroic strike, because you can still GENERATE rate, while devastating, but with heroic strike, it is physically impossible to generate rage from attacking.
I make no assumptions; btw, I understand completely how things work.
Remember the OP is talking about generating quick threat....using devastate is not going to do that unless your devastate damage is 200+ normal.
Point 2, all this talk about white hits is great; but tanking is not absolute in the sense that in your "120" rage bar you can have 12 white hits and 12 devastates That would require an additional 4 more heroic strikes added to your math, and lets also be realistic in the sense that in a boss fight white hits + devastate is not what you are always doing. In between them you are using revenge, ss, tc, demo, etc....again, the point is threat generation, not overall efficiency. Efficiency is nice, but rage efficiency and high threat are not always a direct reflection of each other.
In the OP's case, I suspect his Devastate is the issue, more than likely he does not support 300+ overall threat devastates, and is using 12 rage to burn em as well.
*My point about devastate is not that its a tool no one should use, however it is a tool that has prerequisites prior to use. I.E. doing more than 200 per hit with devastate, and knowing when to use it. It is not a spam type ability like everyone portrays unless you are hitting for 350+ on each hit, then by all means, go to town. But leaving rage on the table IMO is horrible, and HS is a great threat builder, and in heavy aggro fights it is even more important.
Last edited by maintanker; 07-31-2007 at 09:36 PM.
Btw, there are flaws in your math
You assume 10 Devastates; not possible. 100 Rage is my limit, as is yours
Lets do some math:
1. 100 rage bar as standard
2. 200 damage average white hit
3. No crits
4. No armor, misses, etc.
I'll pull a page from previous examples I used w/Impale, then show the total threat gained and rage generated.
-Devastate- (12 rage base damage will include 5 sunders and 200 base weapon damage: Formula is W ÷ 2 + 35 × S=
200/2 + 35x5= 275)
Base damage in defensive stance: 247.5
Base threat from Devastate: 101
Threat Total Combined from base threat + damage modifiers: 247.5 + 101= 348.5
Threat per rage point: 29
Threat Total for SUNDER ARMOR: 301
Threat per rage pointminimum 10 rage sunder- 2 Imp. Sunder + Focused Rage) 30.1 (33.4 with 3/3 Imp. Sunder)
-Heroic Strike- (Rank 9 base 200 weapon damage + 176 for 9 rage)
Base damage in defensive stance: 338.4
Base threat from Heroic Strike: 196
Threat Total Combined from base threat + damage modifiers: 338.4 + 196= 534.6
Threat per rage point: 59.3
So lets show the hits shall we:
10 Heroic Strikes
= 90 Rage used
= 534.6 per hit(using model from above-total threat including damage and defensive stance modifiers)
= 59.3 threat per rage
= 5346 total threat (534.6 * 10)
=96 Rage used
=348.5 per hit (using model from above-total threat including damage and defensive stance modifiers)
=29.04 threat per rage
=2788 total threat (348.5 * 8)
8 white hits (assuming you get all 8)
= 0 rage used
=200 per hit
=200 threat per hit
=43.6 rage generated (1600 *7.5/274.7=43.6)
=5.46 per white hit generated
=1600 threat total (200 *8)
HS threat total= 5346
White hits + Devastate threat total= 4388
In reality, this model is not accurate, because we assume only 100 rage as an absolute, in a dynamic boss fight, other variables considered into this model would dramatically alter the overall outcome. In some cases more rage efficiency is the outcome, in others more threat...
Remember too, your argument is that we use only HS (a next weapon attack ability), and no other instant. I could argue that I use revenge, ss, tc or any other ability + HS, while you use devastate + white hits.
Simple hard and fast rule is; if you have the rage, use a high threat ability first. More threat on your behalf=higher DPS ceiling for your group.
Last edited by maintanker; 07-31-2007 at 09:53 PM.
We just finished the first night of Kara tonight, clearing Attumen to Curator, and I generated probably double the threat that I usually do thanks to the suggestions you all posted. I traded out a few gear pieces to go for Mitigation instead of Avoidance, and exchanged a few gems. Also, I did make a couple more adjustments to my spec, I did without Dev, though that wasn't really intentional, heh. Was sitting at roughly 600-700 TPS instead of my normal 300-400. Thanks a ton for all the suggestions. Please feel free to let me know anything else that may help.
Sounds like a huge improvement, 600-700 is standard, anything beyond that is just infinite rage situations, really well defined macros, and high SBV gear. with 600-700 TPS your guild should be able to "open up" relatively well.
Glad to hear you're doing better now =P
You don't understand.
Originally Posted by maintanker
My example was over 16 seconds of combat using only HS or only Devastates, apples and apples. The math shows that devastate + white hits is more rage efficient if you get 1.5 rage in return per white hit. It also show that devastate + white hit creates more threat in the same amount of time if your white hits generate more than 150 threat. Your example uses 16 seconds combat for HS spam and only 12 seconds for devastate + white attack. If you are going to compare the two, you have to have the same basis.
You are right about one thing, HS does generate more threat than devastate as an individual skill. However, you continue to ignore that HS and white attacks are on the same timer. Therefore you need to subtract the white threat from HS, which significantly lowers its actual threat benefits.
In summary, HS adds ~360 threat for ~13 rage to your white swing (usually 1.6 seconds), which is ~225TPS @ 27.7 TPR. Devastate adds ~350 threat for 12 rage per 1.5 seconds, which is ~233TPS @ 29 TPR. That was assuming your white hits are 150. The harder you hit, the better devastate becomes, and the worse HS becomes.