Riprap
23 Nov : 16:33
And I realize I argue this passionately. And I apologize if I've made others uncomfortable. But this issue is so central to my core beliefs that I cannot shrug it off.

Riprap
23 Nov : 16:32
And Rhaina, I claim there isn't equivalence between the two assertions that another person is 'less than human'. One's basis of judgement is their subject's sex, color, or other choice which does not affect other people (like non-aggressive practice of religion). The other's basis of judgment is directly a result of the other person's choice to not acknowledge the rights of others that they would claim for themselves.

If they are taught that way from birth, then their society at large is sick and anti-human. But that still doesn't excuse them for it.

Riprap
23 Nov : 16:26
Hammer, I think you're wrong. There is an objective criteria to judge by. Their culture, society, and philosophy places different human beings in different, inferior and superior, classes, merely by dint of their sex or color or origin. The 'superior' classes then claim domain over other human beings based on these classifications.

My philosophy does not claim domain over any other human being. I can and will tell them they are wrong, but I do not claim they should be killed for asserting *equal* rights to the ones I claim for myself.

That's the objective criteria. Any rights I claim for myself I must acknowledge in other people.

Rhaina
23 Nov : 15:33
I think we all -- as you have done in your life, Hammer -- have to decide for ourselves what we believe is right or wrong, and then live according to those ideals.

We may be right. We may not. But each of us has the obligation to draw our lines and then live by those values. Some people in some cultures view me as less-than-human for being female. Some people view those people as less-than-human for making that judgment about me.

All I can do is my best. That means discerning my principles, and living by them. And within the context of my life, if I cannot look at two opposing ideas and decide which one I believe is right, then I'm immobilized.

Hammerstone
23 Nov : 15:05
I have walked the streets of Iraq and Kuwait. I have sat down with their local leaders, seen their lifestyles, and seen their culture. I don't agree with it, heck you all know I am a Christian pastor.

But what gives any of us here to say what is right and what is wrong? Nothing. You deem that you have criteria but you don't. There is no standard that you and the other person have a greed upon for right and wrong with which you can judge each others actions. You are using your western viewpoint, western thinking, and western standards of right and wrong to judge a near eastern value.

I don't think you can do it.

Evol
23 Nov : 14:51
I'm a bit perplexed about the whole "gkick" thread. What's the point of having a guild policy if you have to reiterate it every time you use it? Either you're trustworthy, in which case you're just reiterating the rules, or you're untrustworthy, in which case you're probably lying about why you kicked them so that it complies with the rules. I don't understand the argument that somehow telling people why someone was kicked instills trust, and why they'd want to use such a bad metric to evaluate it.

Riprap
23 Nov : 14:12
And I realize this makes me very extreme. But I think that imbecility like that has gone on for far too long to continue to be excused.

Riprap
23 Nov : 14:12
I think people that continue to hold such opinions are at best probationary humans, and at worst have abdicated their humanity (if they continue to hold those opinions in the face of evidence that their opinions are anti-human).

I am not interested in killing people like that, because that makes me little better than they are. But I will in no way respect their opinion, nor respect them as a person.

Rhaina
23 Nov : 13:58
I think there is a difference between respecting someone's humanity and respecting the person as an individual, or agreeing with his opinions, or respecting those opinions.

As a corner case, consider the person whose opinion is that I should be taken out and stoned to death. I reserve the right to resist that any action he takes in support of that opinion. That doesn't mean I allow myself to forget that this is also a human being, even if I decide to resist him and his ideas.

Riprap
23 Nov : 13:15
Sorry, Hammer, just because people hold an opinion doesn't mean there is any requirement to respect them, the opinion, or anything about him. People who have racist or misogynistic opinions should be called on it, and shunned from the ranks of human-ness.

I don't care what 'context' applies. If an entire society holds opinions that enslave members of their society, then those societies should be shunned. And while it may be 'disastrous' for someone in that society to hold non-misogynistic or non-racist opinions, they are by no means correct from a human standpoint.

Gertrudis
23 Nov : 13:05
Hammerstone, it is an opinion... but just because it IS an opinion doesn't mean that it isn't also completely true and correct.

And yes, it is my fervent hope that enough people pick up Rhaina's opinion that his 'context' or whathaveyou is burnt down to its cidnders and its ashes dispersed, to the point where all future generations in the world are left scratching their heads and saying "People actually thought that way?"

Hammerstone
23 Nov : 12:56
Rhaina you do realize that calling his beliefs reprehensible is an opinion right? In his eyes they are not reprehensible and his opinion is just as valid as yours. Nothing makes your view more right then his.

Now, in this particular case, context applies. having that view over here won't work, but taking your view to his context would be as disastrous for you as his view in your context is for him.

Evol
23 Nov : 12:55
Now I have En Vogue stuck in my head.

Itanya_Blade
23 Nov : 12:18
I'm already sick to death of Shadowmourne. Mr. Always prepared (aka the Elite Gamer) has been going on and on abuot the damn thing. About how awesome it is. About how he already has all the mats but the special raid drops.

I just want to shout "YOU ARE NEVER GETTING IT!"

Rhaina
23 Nov : 12:08
I feel sorry for 17-year-olds who are raised with a set of beliefs they didn't get to choose and then placed in an environment where those beliefs don't serve them well, and left to try to sort it out for themselves. Some do, some don't.

The beliefs he held are reprehensible, but sending a child who had been raised to think of them as normal to a place where they would only get him into trouble was unfair to him.

That's why I feel KIND OF sorry for him. He was given a horrible set of tools, and then abandoned to try to function in a place he was utterly unprepared for, and he was still a child when it happened. Given a choice between his principles and mine, I choose mine. That doesn't mean I can't also have compassion for the situation he found himself in.

Now, if he was still spouting that crap a year later, my compassion would burn itself right out.