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Not that I disagree, but just to point out something. DK's tanking in 10 mans seem to favor 7.5% hit and 7.5 expertise to contribute to the raid DPS, since the bosses do not hit as hard. To clarify, a DK DO NOT NEED hit/exp as a survival stat as DS heals/shields regardless if the DS lands or not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tengenstein
At least that is what my current research for my DK tank has shown me.
5k out of 400k is... 1.25%. I'd call that next to insignificant.
I tanked 25N Heart of Fear last night, and felt extremely comfortable with my ~620k life raid buffed. I would probably want a bit more for heroic, but that is mainly because I do not know how hard the bosses hit on heroic. I was using the same gems and reforges as I was for ten man normal mode raiding.
I dont know about you ppl but theres something about a 1 mil hp bar is kinda awsome. Granted i am nowhere near that. Closest i very got was in Rand Herioc with a flask and stam food and that was 800k. Granted that my be over kill but a few of the DK abilities are based on Stam/Hp not anything else. I mean its not like my Anti-Magic Shell is based on Attack Power or Strength. Its a 50% of my HP Magic Bubble for 45s. So ud have to do insane magic damge in those 45s not to meantion a DS that (with a 135% mastery) on a 2 or 3 stack hit gives me 100kish physical barrier.
1M HP feels good as hell man. I managed to get to a whopping 1.4M today(2x sta trinkets, unglyphed vamp blood, might of ursoc, RC and stacked shammy buff).
On a related note, I generally think this: rather too much HP than too little. Preferably have ONE stamina trinket(DMF trinket is pretty good) and a few hybrid sta gems here and there. This really should give you enough HP and if you need more for any situation(example: Sha HC dread trash soaking), you can always switch to a few sta gems or 2x sta trinket.
On your question if we ever have enough stamina... Imo, you never have enough stamina. More is always better, but not always the best :)
Agreed. There are still many players who hold on to the "25 is harder" myth.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fetzie
I'm not sure many people are saying 25s are hard, they just hit harder because you can have more healers, so it's not that the fights are harder, the gearing is just different, you probably tend more towards stam instead of stats that might increase DPS like haste for paladins since in 10 mans tank DPS can actually affect the outcome of the boss fight. Not harder, just different.
The primary reason for haste on a prot pally is not for the dps. It is to because haste reduces the cd on our holy power generators. Those allow us to use Shield of the Righteous more often with the 50+% damage reduction for 3 seconds after.
Actually, the dps is a "tipping" reason as both haste and mastery are very close in damage reduction. Here is an excerpt from Theck's simulation discussion:
source: http://sacredduty.net/2012/10/05/dam...ing-follow-up/Quote:
Both haste and mastery have their strong points. Mastery seems to give you the most effective coverage at longer time scales, while they’re about the same at short time scales. Haste is arguably stronger (but not much) for 4-5 attacks, but at 3 or fewer it’s really a toss-up. If we’re assuming that we care about 5 or fewer hits, then you’re pretty safe choosing either as your go-to stat (after hit/exp caps, of course!). Again, haste has the advantage of giving you a non-trivial amount of DPS, which will probably tip the scales in favor of haste for hard-mode raiders. For tanks progressing at a slower pace, and thus not as concerned with personal DPS, exp/mastery is perfectly acceptable as well.
After having tanked 25H for a couple of weeks (4/16, soon to be 5/16), I feel like I can say that stamina is heavily overrated (at least in the gear that you should have by now if you are doing heroics). Sure, things hit harder (Ta'yak's second Assault hits for 750k before cooldowns and Feng swings for ~200k) but it isn't like you lose 80-90% life per swing like in WotLK.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aggathon
Also, doing 150k dps at Elegon heroic without even trying is fun.
For 10man/Warrior there always is enough Stamina on gear (assuming you are appropriately geared for your current progression level).
The only real Effective-Health check in this raiding tier seems to be H Sha of Fear's 6x Hit - and even that can be survived reliably with only a pooled SB/Sbar Combo (plus you'll always have one of Last Stand / Shield Wall / Demo Shout for extra safety) without gemming any Stamina.
So the "enough Stamina" discussion only seems to be relevant for DKs / 25mans.
The other factor to consider is what is the Off-tank. I run with a pally tank as the second tank but since hes a haste build i have to take away some Stm/Mastery and reforge into Str/Haste or theres an agro issue. But that still leaves me with a 720k hp fully buffed in a 10man. So some time its not your stats you have to consider but everyone else.
why would anytank stack str?
IDK, does parrying the boss make him mad at you now?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tengenstein
If you wanted to parry, you'd stack parry. If you want DPS you'd stack hit/exp/haste/crit as appropriate to the class, tanks get so much AP from vengenace the AP from str is trvialized
maybe Str is the wrong stat example but i gotta do something. Currently his haste is such he can use a high treat ability at rate of 3 to 1. So his dps output 2x to 3x higher than a traditional build. The whole idea of advoidance is "obsulte". With the MT being a pally even if he get hit he got 3to 4 times the amount of Hp versus the dmg from the hit. Plus with the speed of attack holy power and (seal of insight?) active hes healing himself throught the fight. Hell H e comes in 4th in heals (when we run 3 healers), and 6th in Dps. And he normally does 2x-3x more dps than me.
The only fight this tier for tanks to truly compare DPS is Will of the Emperor, and that's assuming both tanks dance identically well. Otherwise whichever tank has the boss for the majority of the time will end up owning the meters, that just how vengeance behaves. If you're really behind the other tanks DPS that much then its probably a playstyle and/or gear issue.
Not to mention, he is never gonna get 2x to 3x more dps or threat from haste. It gives non trivial extra dps for sure, but not on that scale. I would expect 5%-15% depending on gear (and actually probably less than that...being conservative), not 200%-300%.
would a 8 pt ilvl make THAT much of a difference? And about playstyle... i dont know, i mean i didnt have a problem when hes was gem/reforged to be "advoidance" built. Its when he reforged to a haste build pally, a simple taunt no longer gives me 130%+ on agro. I have to taunt and runic strike like 2 times and then taunt again to kinda have "full" threat.
Buffed he has a 20.54% Haste. but with a number that high his core moves are probably refreshing every 2-3 sec instead of 5-6 sec or more.
Yeah you are massively over estimating the effect of haste on pally tanks. Crusader strike, the main single target HoPo builder has a 3 second CD baseline. with 20% haste this cd is reduced by 20% to 2.4secons, judgement baseline 4.5 seconds is reduced to 3.6seconds, Holy Wrath, 9s CD baseline is reduced to a 7.2 seconds. You may have noticed a pattern here, 20% haste is in fact a 20% reduction in CD. However this only scales off actual haste, not melee attack speed and not spell haste either so he doesn't actually gain anything from the raid buffs, and due to how the Character sheet shows haste that 20.54% is more likely to be 10.54%.
Taunt (or its synonyms) never gave 130% threat. Ever. Not in Cata, Nor in Wrath, unto the forging of the world. they have generally behaved to give you 100% of the current aggro holders aggro, made you the current aggro holder, and applied a fixate for 3 seconds. If you were the current aggro holder all taunt did was apply the fixate. Thats pretty much how taunts have worked since DKs existed.
Saying you didn't have problems when you pally was avoidance kinda infers that it is a playstyle issue. Avoidance pallies are bad. So of course you're not going to have issues with pallies that are bad, even if you're bad yourself. Taunt>RS>RS>Taunt is bad, the second taunt does nothing unless you've already lost aggro, in which case the first taunt and the 2xRS where a waste.
Lets see some Logs and some armouries and then then maybe we can pinpoint whats going wrong.