I have an issue with most proposed warrior stat priorities.

One thing to point out about damage on Stoneguards is that yes whilst the bleeds are the majority of the damage and aren't blockable, in 10 man they tick for 40K a second. The dogs themselves melee for 180K every 2 seconds, assuming you have 2 on you that's where the spikes will come from, Melee hits to the face. So whilst Sbar will give you greater total damage reduction. SB will provide greater resistance against those spikes its better to rip 31/62% off a lot of the melee hits than AbsorbAbsorbBangBangBangDead.

If you're getting hit by two dogs at the same time though there's no way you're going to keep sblock up though. It's still probably best to hit it when you can but you can kiss all 100% uptime dreams out the window.

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Originally Posted by Tengenstein

One thing to point out about damage on Stoneguards is that yes whilst the bleeds are the majority of the damage and aren't blockable, in 10 man they tick for 40K a second. The dogs themselves melee for 180K every 2 seconds, assuming you have 2 on you that's where the spikes will come from, Melee hits to the face. So whilst Sbar will give you greater total damage reduction. SB will provide greater resistance against those spikes its better to rip 31/62% off a lot of the melee hits than AbsorbAbsorbBangBangBangDead.

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This was my point wrt "the damage that kills you" being the thing, not the total damage you've taken.

TDR has never been the point. When you look at why we geared for EH it WASN'T about TDR...it was about living through spikes. Now that we have a method to smooth those spikes that's better still.

I just wanted to make sure that when we're looking at specific fights we're looking at the right parts of them. I'd suggest that if you were going for TDR dodge and parry would also have a significant place...and I don't think anyone's suggesting them as the go-to method for gearing.

@Airow, so just to kind of sum up... you're saying that even when trying to keep sblock up 100% of the time, hit and expertise are still better, but you have to be very careful about your usage of sbar, and current spreadsheets and sims are undervaluing hit/exp? Which is basically what I was saying in trying to use sbar as more of an "oh shit" button than a constant bleed off. So you're agreeing with me, correct?

Did I really just type "kiss all 100% uptime dreams out the window"... damn... this is going to be a long 2 weeks of night shifts.

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Originally Posted by Aggathon

If you're getting hit by two dogs at the same time though there's no way you're going to keep sblock up though. It's still probably best to hit it when you can but you can kiss all 100% uptime dreams out the window.

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Why does that mean i can't keep Sblock up? Sblock isn't consumed by blocks.

is my UI just messed up then? I always get this little 2 charge counter thingy... BLOWING MY MIND HERE, lol. Or what is that?

If that's the case though then yes, overall it's significantly better to keep up shield block, but again my thesis isn't that shield block shouldn't be used, it's that the sims are greatly undervaluing hit and expertise because the ability to use sbar in conjuction with sblock in "oh shit scenarios" and "when you absolutely NEED it" scenarios is far more important. It's not about RPS or even maintaining 100% uptime and "over the course of a fight" shenanigans. It's about on demand use. You just can't miss a shield slam is what I'm saying.

Thats how many charges of shield block you have you cna use it twice before it goes on CD. In ohshit scenarios you have last stand, IV, demo shout and Sbar. hell you can prolly throw LS in there too.

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Originally Posted by Aggathon

is my UI just messed up then? I always get this little 2 charge counter thingy... BLOWING MY MIND HERE, lol. Or what is that?

If that's the case though then yes, overall it's significantly better to keep up shield block, but again my thesis isn't that shield block shouldn't be used, it's that the sims are greatly undervaluing hit and expertise because the ability to use sbar in conjuction with sblock in "oh shit scenarios" and "when you absolutely NEED it" scenarios is far more important. It's not about RPS or even maintaining 100% uptime and "over the course of a fight" shenanigans. It's about on demand use. You just can't miss a shield slam is what I'm saying.

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It's my understanding that when people say 100% uptime they are basically saying maximum uptime. Which is more in the neighborhood of 60% uptime once you reach the point that you are actively waiting for the shield block cooldown to come up to use it.

If everything is done perfectly, after the 18 second mark you have a 2 second gap. From then on the best you can maintain is a 60% uptime.

I could be completely wrong but that's how I understand it. I'm currently suffering from information overload in MoP so I've been wrong about a lot of things.

You're completeley wrong - not because of your understanding, but your numbers are off. :P
The maximum uptime over a infinite (or at least long, very long fight) is 66.6%.
The highest consecutive uptime is 24 seconds, after this you get a 3 second gap before the next charge comes off CD.

I feel like this only adds to the importance of using Sbar sometimes, and Sbar usuage -> hit/exp are better. Am I wrong on this? I'm not saying spam it by any means but... ya...

And... correct me if I'm wrong, I think earlier people were saying that crit blocks have an ICD of 3 seconds?  Doesn't this limit the maximum theoretical RPS of mastery to 3.3 RPS once you get to 100% crit block via mastery?  I mean... I could be TOTALLY wrong on this, I honestly just wanna know.

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Originally Posted by Quietsch

You're completeley wrong - not because of your understanding, but your numbers are off. :P
The maximum uptime over a infinite (or at least long, very long fight) is 66.6%.
The highest consecutive uptime is 24 seconds, after this you get a 3 second gap before the next charge comes off CD.

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Oops I thought the cooldown was 10 seconds on shield block... looking at it now I see 9. That would explain it.

Yeah their is definitely a CD on enrage which does set a cap on RPS we can get from it. Also means the spreadsheets likely aren't exactly accurate on their RPS numbers for mastery as well.

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Originally Posted by Aggathon

And... correct me if I'm wrong, I think earlier people were saying that crit blocks have an ICD of 3 seconds? Doesn't this limit the maximum theoretical RPS of mastery to 3.3 RPS once you get to 100% crit block via mastery? I mean... I could be TOTALLY wrong on this, I honestly just wanna know.

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Technically even when you're crit-block-capped (which is a shitty term...mastery soft capped? meh...whatever) you'll be limited by your avoidance and the boss swing timer in addition to the Enrage ICD. If you had no avoidance the ICD would probably mean every other boss swing (for swing times > 1.5s and <= 3s) would enrage you (assuming SB is up for it). Avoidance would take away some of those though (since it's impossible to not have SOME avoidance, even wearing DPS gear str->parry would give you a fairly considerable amount of avoidance).

The math is pretty simple though...

Ya, so mastery only gets worse than 3.3 RPS, that's what I'm saying like the BEST you could absolutely hope for is 3.3 RPS, is that a lot?

Well you get 1 RPS from shout, zerker rage and defensive stance if you use zerker and a shout on cooldown...so it's pretty decent. If you NEVER got an SnB proc and never avoided an attack and landed every single SS and Rev, you'd get 20/6 + 15/9 or 5 RPS from your attacks...so it's not bad. Obviously SnB and boss avoidance will fiddle with the SS/Rev numbers a bit...I suppose you could theoretically double that (or so) if you got really lucky.

Its about 50% of what you need to keep SB on CD. I spreadsheeted myself assuming i never, ever got a crit block and even in my almost entirely blue gear, with the hit cap and 6% expertise I was getting 7.3RPS, if i dump my arse into simcraft it tells me I should get 7.7RPS

and so the conclusion is?

No, if your mostly using Sbar its Hit>exp>stam>parry>dodge>>>>>>>>>Mastery

If you're mostly using SB its Mastery>Hit>Exp>Stam>Parry>dodge

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Originally Posted by Tengenstein

No, if your mostly using Sbar its Hit>exp>stam>parry>dodge>>>>>>>>>Mastery

If you're mostly using SB its Mastery>Hit>Exp>Stam>Parry>dodge

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If you're using SB with excess Rage bleeding off into SBar, Hit>Expertise>Mastery>~Stam>Parry>Dodge