Monk: Brewmasters That Peculiar animal

I don't understand the whole 15% expertise thing really.

I have done some quick math, based on some numbers I could find and things aren't adding up.
From what I can see 2550 haste yields more chi, more auto-atks (thus more elusive brew procs), and you only miss out on about 1/2 an orb every minute via gift of the ox. Is 1/2 an orb a minute really worth 2550 secondary stat?!

Has anyone else actually run the #s on this? Doesn't make sense to me.... Is it more of a quality of life thing to make the rotation more smooth? If so I could at least buy into that idea.

What is your math for 1/2 an orb a minute? Are you accounting for missed keg smashes? Actually, for all three sources of Chi mentioned in the earlier response?

Keg Smash alone is an 8 second cd. That implies 7.5 keg smashes in 1 minute. If you only go to 2550 expertise, then you have a 7.5% chance to be parried. That lines up nice and simple to the 7.5 keg smashes in a minute to mean that once every 100 seconds you miss a keg smash. That's 2 chi per 100 seconds. That's 1.2 lost chi per minute from that source alone.

Add in any other sources lost from parried melee attacks and you miss a little more. Seems to me, since keg smash applies weakened blows, a missed one of those is going to be the worst case scenario from a chi/minute and an overall survivability outlook.

Edit: I haven't accounted for more melee attacks per minute from the 2550 being added to haste instead. However, that will also scale the number of parried attacks as well, so I'm not sure the overall impact there.

If your specials miss you get the energy returned, which means it only costed you 1 GCD which you would have otherwise used for tiger palm. Also, if BoK misses you still get shuffle.

Its 107 seconds, not 100. Also as I said, you regain the energy you lost, thus it only costs you 1 chi, as you can use the returned energy for jab. Thus, with +2550 haste you lose 1 chi and 1 tiger palm every 107 seconds, and gain 70 energy = 1.75 Jabs = 1.75 chi.

Thus, from my math you are looking at,
2550 haste yields 1.75 chi per minute + 6% haste (Auto-atk)
2550 expertise yields 1 chi per minute + roughly half a health orb per minute



You have to miss 4 keg smashes in a row, which is extremely unlikely, for the debuff to fall off. Also, other players can apply the debuff as well.

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By Ronark
Thrash (Cat, Bear), available to all Druids.
Thunder Clap, available to all Warriors.
Scarlet Fever, available to only Blood Deathknights and tied to the Blood Boil ability.
Earth Shock, available to all Shaman.
Keg Smash, available to Brewmaster Monks.
Hammer of the Righteous, available to Retribution and Protection paladins.


What other sources? Maybe I am missing something, as I just started playing this toon 2 weeks ago...but my current hunch is its based on outdated info thats been strung along since beta.

Honestly, the biggest reason behind my desire to DW tank is for the uniqueness. It just helps me feel like I am playing something unique. Same reason my monk is a gnome.

Sorry if my statement was unclear. When I said "plus any other sources" that was more in the nature of a question. I freely admit I'm not a theorycrafter, much less a monk expert. I was trying to follow along the conversation which was why I asked for the math. My post was more to highlight what little I know rather than a rebuttal.

I clearly did make an error on the 100 seconds but that was because I was thinking 100% rather than 100 attacks. That's why I don't theorycraft, lol. Especially since you would be comparing two very different haste values making the 100 attacks an entirely different base number to compare %.

As to the other classes applying that debuff, unless it's AoE, which most bosses aren't, I don't believe they usually will do that. Elemental will earth shock but that's not until after flame shock dot is up. When I mention weakened blows, I mentioned worst case which would likely be on the pull.

Even if there are no other sources of Chi, you would still be missing out on Elusive brew stacks etc too, yeah?

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Originally Posted by sifuedition

As to the other classes applying that debuff, unless it's AoE, which most bosses aren't, I don't believe they usually will do that. Elemental will earth shock but that's not until after flame shock dot is up. When I mention weakened blows, I mentioned worst case which would likely be on the pull.

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Enhancement will definitely keep up weakened blows (on a single target), but yeah, it won't be up at the pull. (</2cents>)

Yeah, I believe enh and ele basically do the same on shocks. Flame shock for the dot and to buff fire spells and as long as the dot is up, earth shock, correct?

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Originally Posted by sifuedition

Yeah, I believe enh and ele basically do the same on shocks. Flame shock for the dot and to buff fire spells and as long as the dot is up, earth shock, correct?

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I'm hazy on how fulmination (the reason ele casts earth shock) works for ele (since I hate elemental), but I expect they'd probably manage to keep up weakened blows as well (since the debuff lasts 30s). Enhance will cast ES probably 15s after the last one in the worst case scenario, I think (without actually thinking about it too hard...it won't be much more than that in any case...certainly nowhere near 30s).

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Has anyone else actually run the #s on this?

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The math is in the BM thread at Elitist Jerks.

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If your specials miss you get the energy returned, which means it only costed you 1 GCD which you would have otherwise used for tiger palm. Also, if BoK misses you still get shuffle.

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Using and missing Keg Smash still starts the CD, which is fairly long, and your only place to spend that energy from a survivability standpoint is Jab/Expel Harm/Serpent Crane Kick, all of which are inferior for damage and Chi generation. Missing the debuff is less of an issue, unless of course you miss the first one.

Just remember that Gift of the Ox is pretty powerful from a pure math standpoint. You get a LOT of little green orbs at your feet while you are tanking. However, if you (like me) are less than interested in putting all your item budget into a stat that depends on you running around picking up little green orbs all the time, I don't think it is ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY to gear for 15% expertise. Even Venyasure qualifies his math, saying essentially you have to weight Gift of the Ox for yourself and your own playstyle. Once you take account for the value of Gift of the Ox for your playstyle, the amount of Keg Smashes you miss on a boss fight is less important than on trash (where you're more likely to be missing the debuff, you need the AOE damage more, and you will also be dealing with the Dizzying Haze debuff). Unless you REALLY need those orbs or just a little more extra tank damage to finish an enrage timer, it is probably unnecessary to go for 15% expertise. Personally, I'm sticking with 7.5% Hit and 7.5% expertise - it makes it easier for me to swap from WW, and I feel comfortable stacking things like Haste (more Chi) and Crit (more Elusive Brew) that are a bit more dependable. We get so much parry and dodge from our rotation, and Mastery really only helps reduce initial spike damage, so personally I go with a Agility>Expertise to 7.5% = Hit to 7.5%>Haste>Crit>Dodge/Parry>Mastery.

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Originally Posted by Ion

I'm hazy on how fulmination (the reason ele casts earth shock) works for ele (since I hate elemental), but I expect they'd probably manage to keep up weakened blows as well (since the debuff lasts 30s). Enhance will cast ES probably 15s after the last one in the worst case scenario, I think (without actually thinking about it too hard...it won't be much more than that in any case...certainly nowhere near 30s).

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Basicly you Shock after 4-6 procs, with enough Mastery that's roughly 6-7 LB casts, with Blasts & Lava Burst woven in that's actually around 25s-30s between Earth Shocks

So, from what I've been reading here this is what I understand the stats to weigh:

agi=sta(?) > exp (7.5%) > hit (7.5%) > exp (15%) > crit > mastery > haste > dodge = parry

Agility
Grants use AP (larger Guard shield), crit (Evasive Brew stacks), and dodge. Excellent stat all around.

Stamina
Still important for handling the big hits. There should be no need to stack it, but it shouldn't be completely ignored either.

Expertise
Get this to the soft cap of 7.5% to remove dodges and reduce parries, a double dip stat up to this point giving more value per point than hit. More hits equals more Elusive Brew stacks and GotOx orbs, plus your Blackout Kick can't miss either if you want to keep Shuffle up.

Hit
Get 7.5% to remove special attacks from missing, very important for Keg Smash/Jab to generate Chi for other abilities and Blackout Kick hitting to get Shuffle rolling. Note that your white attacks can STILL miss if you're dual-wielding (27% hit cap), meaning that your Elusive Brew and GotOx procs could be hampered (both are triggered from white hits). In my opinion, two-handers are superior for Brewmasters because of this.

Since Brewmasters are very dependant on active mitigation for survivability once you have hit at 7.5% you should probably bring expertise the rest of the way to it's hard cap of 15%. Missing abilities can be very devastating for Monk tanks.

Crit
Crits from auto-attacks grant stacks of Elusive Brew, a very important survival mechanism for Brewmasters.

Mastery
More mastery allows you to stagger more damage and then remove it for 1 Chi (with Purifying Brew). This is what allows us to put less emphasis on stamina since we're only taking a portion of incoming damage. It could be argued that mastery is more important since it grants constant dependable damage mitigation (essentially), but since mastery seems to accumulate so slowly it seems questionable which is worth more atm.

Haste
Faster attacks lets us potentially generate Elusive Brew and GotOx orbs more quickly, plus it increases our Energy generation allowing us to "do more". A very nice stat but I think that maybe it falls behind the others for dependable survivability.

Parry/Dodge
Considering the large amount of dodge and parry we get from our abilities (and from agility for dodge), along with Stagger and Guard, these two stats just don't seem to be worth that much compared to everything else.


Gearing seems like basically we want DPS gear for the most part.

Tank trinkets make sense to use, but DPS ones seem to be just as viable with these weights.

For gems/enchants/flasks/potions I've seen several theories...


OPTION A) "Active Mitigation"

GEMS:
Red: agi, exp, agi/hit, exp/hit, exp/crit
Yellow: agi/crit, exp/crit, hit/crit
Blue: hit, exp/hit, agi/hit, hit/crit
Meta: Agile Primal Diamond

ENCHANTS:
Legs: 285 agi + 165 crit (shadowleather leg armor)
Shoulder: 200 agi + 100 crit (greater tiger claw inscription)
Chest: 80 all stats (glorious stats)
Hands: 170 exp (superior expertise) *OR* 170 mastery (superior mastery) *OR* 170 haste (greater haste)
Feet: 140 agi + 8% move (blurred speed)
Wrist: 170 agi (greater agility)
Back: 180 hit (accuracy) *OR* 180 crit (superior critical strike)
Weapon: 1650 agi proc (dancing steel) *OR* crit/haste/mastery proc (windsong)

FLASKS and POTIONS:
Flask of Spring Blossoms (+1000 agi)
Virmen's Bite (+4000 agi)


OPTION B) "Effective Health"

GEMS:
Red: sta/agi, sta/exp
Yellow: sta/mastery, sta/crit, sta/haste
Blue: sta/agi, sta/exp
Meta: Austere Primal Diamond *OR* Effulgent Primal Diamond

ENCHANTS:
Legs: 430 sta + 165 dodge (ironscale leg armor)
Shoulder: 300 sta + 100 dodge (greater ox horn inscription)
Chest: 300 sta (superior stamina)
Hands: 170 exp (superior expertise) *OR* 170 mastery (superior mastery) *OR* 170 haste (greater haste)
Feet: 140 agi + 8% move (blurred speed)
Wrist: 170 agi (greater agility)
Back: 200 sta (greater protection)
Weapon: 1650 dodge proc (river's song) *OR* damage shield proc (colossus)

FLASKS and POTIONS:
Flask of the Earth (+1500 sta)
Potion of the Mountains (+12000 armor)


There's also an option C, where you gem for active mitigation (agi, hit, expertise) but enchant for effective health, mixing the two. With that option the leg and shoulder enchants seem a little weak since dodge is such a low priority stat for us, but you'd be sacrificing almost 10k health. The damage shield proc on Colossus seems very underpowered as well, but it has a high PPM (3), and again the dodge proc from River's Song seems like a waste on Brewmasters. The Austere meta might be better too, since any tank could always use more armor (Effulgent might be a valid choice too for heavy magic damage encounters).

With that in mind, here's what it would look like...

OPTION C) "Mixed AM/EH"

GEMS:
Red: agi, exp, agi/hit, exp/hit, exp/crit
Yellow: agi/crit, exp/crit, hit/crit
Blue: hit, exp/hit, agi/hit, hit/crit
Meta: Austere Primal Diamond *OR* Effulgent Primal Diamond

ENCHANTS:
Legs: 285 agi + 165 crit (shadowleather leg armor)
Shoulder: 200 agi + 100 crit (greater tiger claw inscription)
Chest: 300 sta (superior stamina)
Hands: 170 exp (superior expertise) *OR* 170 mastery (superior mastery) *OR* 170 haste (greater haste)
Feet: 140 agi + 8% move (blurred speed)
Wrist: 170 agi (greater agility)
Back: 200 sta (greater protection)
Weapon: 1650 agi proc (dancing steel) *OR* crit/haste/mastery proc (windsong)

FLASKS and POTIONS:
Flask of the Earth (+1500 sta)
Potion of the Mountains (+12000 armor)


Thoughts?

They changed expertise. It no longer double dips for the first half. Now, the first 2550 removes dodge from the combat table. The next 2550 removes parry.

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Originally Posted by Knighterrant81

The math is in the BM thread at Elitist Jerks.
Using and missing Keg Smash still starts the CD, which is fairly long, and your only place to spend that energy from a survivability standpoint is Jab/Expel Harm/Serpent Crane Kick, all of which are inferior for damage and Chi generation. Missing the debuff is less of an issue, unless of course you miss the first one.

Just remember that Gift of the Ox is pretty powerful from a pure math standpoint. You get a LOT of little green orbs at your feet while you are tanking. However, if you (like me) are less than interested in putting all your item budget into a stat that depends on you running around picking up little green orbs all the time, I don't think it is ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY to gear for 15% expertise. Even Venyasure qualifies his math, saying essentially you have to weight Gift of the Ox for yourself and your own playstyle. Once you take account for the value of Gift of the Ox for your playstyle, the amount of Keg Smashes you miss on a boss fight is less important than on trash (where you're more likely to be missing the debuff, you need the AOE damage more, and you will also be dealing with the Dizzying Haze debuff). Unless you REALLY need those orbs or just a little more extra tank damage to finish an enrage timer, it is probably unnecessary to go for 15% expertise. Personally, I'm sticking with 7.5% Hit and 7.5% expertise - it makes it easier for me to swap from WW, and I feel comfortable stacking things like Haste (more Chi) and Crit (more Elusive Brew) that are a bit more dependable. We get so much parry and dodge from our rotation, and Mastery really only helps reduce initial spike damage, so personally I go with a Agility>Expertise to 7.5% = Hit to 7.5%>Haste>Crit>Dodge/Parry>Mastery.

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Missing Keg smash does start the CD, but that's not really an issue. As I said, you only lost a GCD = 1 tiger palm. You lost dmg, yes, but not survivability, as you still gain 0.75 chi by using the haste over the expertise.

Gift of the ox is potent, but we are only talking about maybe another 1/2 an orb per minute, and given the rate at which they spawn that doesn't seem like much to me. The orbs offer some great healing with tons of attack power, but I think its important to remember these calculations are done on paper with stationary targets in mind. Gift of the ox also has many drawbacks, which you was touched on in that post. If the encounter requires any sort of mobility they drastically lose value, and if the fight is extremely mobile, then they won't have any value at all. Also they have a rather short duration, and could potentially disappear before you ever find yourself in need of a heal. They require you to move the boss to pickup the orbs, which can be an issue for some mobs that reposition themselves in odd ways. They also overheal a great deal, especially when you move into 25 mans. Even timing Death Strikes initial heal as a DK is/was no small task, and a huge chuck of it would always overheal, At the moment there seems to be this disillusion amongst many monks that one can easily move a few yards to the left and right to pick up orbs and be perfectly in syn with the heals. Its not going to happen, especially not for most monks.

I used to be a hardcore endgame raider in vanilla, but over the years I have transitioned to more of a casual playstyle. The guild I am in now is quite small, and as one of the more experienced players and fluid players, I am often asked to change specs based on the needs of the raid night. With a little research, I can pretty much play any class and spec at this point. I enjoy the variety that comes with my role in raids, much more so than server first kills. Thus I originally looked into this because I planned to offspec DPS, and I wanted a comparison as to what the net losses and gains were. Anyways, as far as I can tell the tradeoffs don't seem to be too extreme on other side, and I think I will stick with 7.5% to more easily accommodate my DPS role, and likely healing as well later.

Thank you.

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Originally Posted by Ion

Enhancement will definitely keep up weakened blows (on a single target), but yeah, it won't be up at the pull. (</2cents>)

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If Keg smash misses, does it miss all the targets? If so I would certainly consider that a bug, as I vaguely recall another tank having that issue and it was fixed quite a while back.

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Originally Posted by Chuggernaut

So, from what I've been reading here this is what I understand the stats to weigh:

agi=sta(?) > exp (7.5%) > hit (7.5%) > exp (15%) > crit > mastery > haste > dodge = parry

Agility
Grants use AP (larger Guard shield), crit (Evasive Brew stacks), and dodge. Excellent stat all around.

Stamina
Still important for handling the big hits. There should be no need to stack it, but it shouldn't be completely ignored either.

Expertise
Get this to the soft cap of 7.5% to remove dodges and reduce parries, a double dip stat up to this point giving more value per point than hit. More hits equals more Elusive Brew stacks and GotOx orbs, plus your Blackout Kick can't miss either if you want to keep Shuffle up.

Hit
Get 7.5% to remove special attacks from missing, very important for Keg Smash/Jab to generate Chi for other abilities and Blackout Kick hitting to get Shuffle rolling. Note that your white attacks can STILL miss if you're dual-wielding (27% hit cap), meaning that your Elusive Brew and GotOx procs could be hampered (both are triggered from white hits). In my opinion, two-handers are superior for Brewmasters because of this.

Since Brewmasters are very dependant on active mitigation for survivability once you have hit at 7.5% you should probably bring expertise the rest of the way to it's hard cap of 15%. Missing abilities can be very devastating for Monk tanks.

Crit
Crits from auto-attacks grant stacks of Elusive Brew, a very important survival mechanism for Brewmasters.

Mastery
More mastery allows you to stagger more damage and then remove it for 1 Chi (with Purifying Brew). This is what allows us to put less emphasis on stamina since we're only taking a portion of incoming damage. It could be argued that mastery is more important since it grants constant dependable damage mitigation (essentially), but since mastery seems to accumulate so slowly it seems questionable which is worth more atm.

Haste
Faster attacks lets us potentially generate Elusive Brew and GotOx orbs more quickly, plus it increases our Energy generation allowing us to "do more". A very nice stat but I think that maybe it falls behind the others for dependable survivability.

Parry/Dodge
Considering the large amount of dodge and parry we get from our abilities (and from agility for dodge), along with Stagger and Guard, these two stats just don't seem to be worth that much compared to everything else.


Gearing seems like basically we want DPS gear for the most part.

Tank trinkets make sense to use, but DPS ones seem to be just as viable with these weights.

For gems/enchants/flasks/potions I've seen several theories...


OPTION A) "Active Mitigation"

GEMS:
Red: agi, exp, agi/hit, exp/hit, exp/crit
Yellow: agi/crit, exp/crit, hit/crit
Blue: hit, exp/hit, agi/hit, hit/crit
Meta: Agile Primal Diamond

ENCHANTS:
Legs: 285 agi + 165 crit (shadowleather leg armor)
Shoulder: 200 agi + 100 crit (greater tiger claw inscription)
Chest: 80 all stats (glorious stats)
Hands: 170 exp (superior expertise) *OR* 170 mastery (superior mastery) *OR* 170 haste (greater haste)
Feet: 140 agi + 8% move (blurred speed)
Wrist: 170 agi (greater agility)
Back: 180 hit (accuracy) *OR* 180 crit (superior critical strike)
Weapon: 1650 agi proc (dancing steel) *OR* crit/haste/mastery proc (windsong)

FLASKS and POTIONS:
Flask of Spring Blossoms (+1000 agi)
Virmen's Bite (+4000 agi)


OPTION B) "Effective Health"

GEMS:
Red: sta/agi, sta/exp
Yellow: sta/mastery, sta/crit, sta/haste
Blue: sta/agi, sta/exp
Meta: Austere Primal Diamond *OR* Effulgent Primal Diamond

ENCHANTS:
Legs: 430 sta + 165 dodge (ironscale leg armor)
Shoulder: 300 sta + 100 dodge (greater ox horn inscription)
Chest: 300 sta (superior stamina)
Hands: 170 exp (superior expertise) *OR* 170 mastery (superior mastery) *OR* 170 haste (greater haste)
Feet: 140 agi + 8% move (blurred speed)
Wrist: 170 agi (greater agility)
Back: 200 sta (greater protection)
Weapon: 1650 dodge proc (river's song) *OR* damage shield proc (colossus)

FLASKS and POTIONS:
Flask of the Earth (+1500 sta)
Potion of the Mountains (+12000 armor)


There's also an option C, where you gem for active mitigation (agi, hit, expertise) but enchant for effective health, mixing the two. With that option the leg and shoulder enchants seem a little weak since dodge is such a low priority stat for us, but you'd be sacrificing almost 10k health. The damage shield proc on Colossus seems very underpowered as well, but it has a high PPM (3), and again the dodge proc from River's Song seems like a waste on Brewmasters. The Austere meta might be better too, since any tank could always use more armor (Effulgent might be a valid choice too for heavy magic damage encounters).

With that in mind, here's what it would look like...

OPTION C) "Mixed AM/EH"

GEMS:
Red: agi, exp, agi/hit, exp/hit, exp/crit
Yellow: agi/crit, exp/crit, hit/crit
Blue: hit, exp/hit, agi/hit, hit/crit
Meta: Austere Primal Diamond *OR* Effulgent Primal Diamond

ENCHANTS:
Legs: 285 agi + 165 crit (shadowleather leg armor)
Shoulder: 200 agi + 100 crit (greater tiger claw inscription)
Chest: 300 sta (superior stamina)
Hands: 170 exp (superior expertise) *OR* 170 mastery (superior mastery) *OR* 170 haste (greater haste)
Feet: 140 agi + 8% move (blurred speed)
Wrist: 170 agi (greater agility)
Back: 200 sta (greater protection)
Weapon: 1650 agi proc (dancing steel) *OR* crit/haste/mastery proc (windsong)

FLASKS and POTIONS:
Flask of the Earth (+1500 sta)
Potion of the Mountains (+12000 armor)


Thoughts?

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It takes 951 agility or 855 dodge rating to get 1% dodge, thus Riversong isn't even in the competition. I would say your best option is dancing steel by far, followed by the cheaper option windsong. Windsong has an insane proc rate!

Therefore, I don't see much merit in trying to go for EH. The increase to your dodge is minimal, and your only gaining HP. Meanwhile, mastery is so weak that you can't really expect to soak up blows like other tanks. I think you are looking at this thing from the wrong perspective. From my perspective, brewmasters are avoidance tanks, and blizzard implemented stagger to reduce the spike dmg that plagues such tanks.


I think the viable options for now and the futre are,

Gift of the Ox tanking
Agility > 7.5% hit, 7.5% (15%) expertise > haste > crit > dodge/parry > mastery

Avoidance Tanking
Agility > haste > crit > dodge/parry > mastery > hit/expertise


As time passes and gear increases these two will likely merge with one another, as you will get sufficient exp/hit without even trying.

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Originally Posted by sifuedition

They changed expertise. It no longer double dips for the first half. Now, the first 2550 removes dodge from the combat table. The next 2550 removes parry.

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I wasn't aware that they made that change... So instead of a double dipping stat we get a stacking mutually exclusive stat, yay. I guess that means though that bosses only have a base 7.5% parry chance now instead of 15%? Still it seems a little weird to even keep this 15% hard cap around for expertise now that they've moved to an active mitigation model for tanks. Since tanks are the only ones the parry cap affects (melee dps already has enough incentives from boss frontal abilities to attack from behind), it seems to be a little too much for tanks given their already bloated stat requirements...

I have issues with the concept of being a pure avoidance tank as a Brewmaster. I personally think Gift of the Ox is too crucial a mechanic for Brewmasters to be completely ignored. I have been going with the Agility > hit/exp 7.5 > haste > crit > mastery > dodge/parry stat priority, and it seems to be working fine for me. It grants excellent GotO orb generation, Elusive Brew stack generation, and allows for the ability to rack up a large stagger amount to just be purified.

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As I said, you only lost a GCD = 1 tiger palm.

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No, you lose Chi that you could have gained from Keg Smash. Keg Smash generates Chi twice as efficiently as Jab, but at a rate that never increases and only decreases when you miss a Keg Smash. Thus, Expertise increases your Chi generation:

More Expertise = More hits with Keg Smash = better Energy-to-Chi conversion ratio--> more Chi for Shuffle and Purifying Brew.

The Chi is more important than the GCD.

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They also overheal a great deal, especially when you move into 25 mans.

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They don't get used if you are 100% health. Having an orb overheal you sounds like a "first world problem" to me. Even if I don't try to get them at all, a fair amount of them do end up proccing under my feet and healing me. You don't have to move to get some benefit out of Gift of the Ox.



Folks, go check out the adjustments venyasure made to his spreadsheet. I don't think 15% Expertise is exactly the bee's knees anymore.

Also, some personal experience: Guard is amazing. My Guard spell on Elegon last night would completely absorb his breath attacks, even if I had several overcharged! stacks. My healers were commenting on how easy I was to heal.

Save Guard for big hits = you have Shield Wall on a 30 Second CD. And Diffuse Magic. And Zen Meditation. Who needs stamina?

Use Guard on cooldown like you are tanking a 5 man = OMG WHY ARE MONKS SO SQUISHY QQ.

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Originally Posted by Knighterrant81

No, you lose Chi that you could have gained from Keg Smash. Keg Smash generates Chi twice as efficiently as Jab, but at a rate that never increases and only decreases when you miss a Keg Smash. Thus, Expertise increases your Chi generation:

More Expertise = More hits with Keg Smash = better Energy-to-Chi conversion ratio--> more Chi for Shuffle and Purifying Brew.

The Chi is more important than the GCD.



They don't get used if you are 100% health. Having an orb overheal you sounds like a "first world problem" to me. Even if I don't try to get them at all, a fair amount of them do end up proccing under my feet and healing me. You don't have to move to get some benefit out of Gift of the Ox.



Folks, go check out the adjustments venyasure made to his spreadsheet. I don't think 15% Expertise is exactly the bee's knees anymore.

Also, some personal experience: Guard is amazing. My Guard spell on Elegon last night would completely absorb his breath attacks, even if I had several overcharged! stacks. My healers were commenting on how easy I was to heal.

Save Guard for big hits = you have Shield Wall on a 30 Second CD. And Diffuse Magic. And Zen Meditation. Who needs stamina?

Use Guard on cooldown like you are tanking a 5 man = OMG WHY ARE MONKS SO SQUISHY QQ.

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When I said that you only lose 1 GCD, I was referring to having 6% haste over 7.5% exp. In which case the only thing you lose is the 1 GCD, and you actually gain 0.75 Chi.

These are the two secnarios,
Keg smash hits = 2 chi - 40 energy
Tiger Palm

Keg smash misses = 2 lost chi
Jab = 1 Chi - 40 energy

You lost 1 Chi and 1 Tiger Palm worth of dmg.


Ahh yah thats what I have been saying....15% expertise is shit.
EJ blows...I can't count how often they get shit wrong. They might, and I mean MIGHT, get that spreadsheet to work, aka model actual events, after its already been determined.


Are you using the guard glyph?

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You lost 1 Chi

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What you're missing is that this is actually a big deal. Missing a Keg Smash means you are losing out on your maximum Chi generation potential. Also, you didn't lose 1 Tiger Palm of damage. You lost a KEG SMASH's worth of damage, which is also a big deal.

Now, I've never advocated the 15% expertise - that struck me as an odd mathematical artifact of spreadsheets, and it turns out it was a bug in the spreadsheets anyway. It just doesn't sound like something Blizzard would reasonably ever build into any spec. I've always felt that 7.5% Expertise/7.5% Hit is the way to go, and that is a GREAT place to be for a tank (you have much better initial aggro, which is the only time threat actually matters - I am SO HAPPY to be playing a tank that stacks these stats at all!). Thank you, Blizz for making hit/exp survival stats. My WW set also thanks you.

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Are you using the guard glyph?

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No. I wanted to see if I could get away without it, and the answer is yes, at least on normal.

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Originally Posted by Knighterrant81

What you're missing is that this is actually a big deal. Missing a Keg Smash means you are losing out on your maximum Chi generation potential. Also, you didn't lose 1 Tiger Palm of damage. You lost a KEG SMASH's worth of damage, which is also a big deal.

Now, I've never advocated the 15% expertise - that struck me as an odd mathematical artifact of spreadsheets, and it turns out it was a bug in the spreadsheets anyway. It just doesn't sound like something Blizzard would reasonably ever build into any spec. I've always felt that 7.5% Expertise/7.5% Hit is the way to go, and that is a GREAT place to be for a tank (you have much better initial aggro, which is the only time threat actually matters - I am SO HAPPY to be playing a tank that stacks these stats at all!). Thank you, Blizz for making hit/exp survival stats. My WW set also thanks you.



No. I wanted to see if I could get away without it, and the answer is yes, at least on normal.

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No I am not missing anything. You are doing a comparison with one monk at +2550 exp, and the other monk with nothing. Of course the guy with the extra 2550 exp is going to win.

However, if you compare 2550 haste to 2550 exp and you see what I am talking about.


+2550 Haste
6% haste = More melee crits = More elusive Brew & More healing orbs
1.75 more Jabs per minute = 1.75 more chi

+2550 Exp
More healing orbs
More dmg
1 additional Keg smash that lands every 111 seconds = +0.55 Chi per minute


So, you actually gain over 1 chi with the haste over exp, not lose it! You also gain elusive brew procs!
Meanwhile the exp only yields about another half a healing orb per minute....

That is a proper comparison!