Thing is we don't like avoidance because it is by nature random and doens't really increase our survivability all that much relevant to other stats, if we got avoidance from Haste or crit, or even mastery, we still wouldn't like it. If you took my 5.3 toon and changed all the parry into crit, and the dodge into Haste and they still gave me parry and dodge respectively at 100% i would still look at haste and go "BLERG TAKE IT AWAY!" Taking it off gear isn't really going to make a difference. It either needs to be have added benefits like riposte or we need to not care about it becuase other stats do better thing for our survivability, like Haste does for Pallies.
When I asked if the removal of parry and dodge stats from equipment is an idea worth lobbying for, I kind of meant it the other way around - is it an idea you think without merit and would shoot down?
I do not think it is a surprise to Blizzard that dodge and parry are the lowest priorities of any tanking class that can get them, and I do think that some people at Blizzard are suggesting the removal of dodge and parry from gear and tweaking the tanking mechanics so a benefit is gained, in some way, from haste and crit on all tanking classes.
I do think it is a discussion worth having.
In terms of competing for "dps plate" that is a perspective that deserves a fuller picture.
Cloth/int - with spirit: Used by 3 priest specs
Cloth/int - without spirit: User by 6 mage and lock specs and potentially used by 1 priest spec a lot and a little by 2 other priest specs.
Leather/int - with or without spirit: Used by 2 druid specs and 1 monk spec
Leather/agi: Used by 3 rogue specs, 2 druid specs, 2 monk specs
Mail/int - with or without spirit: Used by 2 shaman specs
Mail/agi: Used by 1 shaman spec and 3 hunter specs
Plate/int - with or without spirit: Used by 1 paladin spec
Plate/str - without dodge + parry: Used by 2 dk specs, 2 warrior specs, 1 paladin spec
Plate/str - with dodge / parry: Used by 1 dk spec, 1 warrior spec, 1 paladin spec
Neck+cloak+ring+trinket/int - with spirit: Used by 3 priest, 1 monk, 2 druid, 2 shaman, 1 paladin spec
Neck+cloak+ring+trinket/int - without spirit: Used by 1 priest, 3 mage, 3 lock, 1 druid, 1 shaman spec
Neck+cloak+ring+trinket/agi: Used by 3 rogue, 2 druid, 2 monk, 3 hunter, 1 shaman spec
Neck+cloak+ring+trinket/str - without dodge + parry: Used by 2 dk, 2 warrior, 1 paladin spec
Neck+cloak+ring+trinket/str - with dodge/parry (or other tanking setup on trinkets): 1 dk, 1 warrior, 1 paladin spec
My point is there already is a vast disparity in the amount of competition for specific types of items. While this proposed change would mean plate/str would become an 8 spec affair, this is not a huge departure from the 7 spec mess of leather/agi.
In a sense, this big picture highlights that in many ways it would be bad for plate tanks if this change was implemented. Right now we have a low number of tanks in a raid who end up with no competition for tank loot. If tank loot drops, you get it. No other class enjoys the same level of preferential loot allocation, with the exception of holy paladins. And yet, I would rather have it the other way.
Getting rid of parry and dodge on gear would mean that no single piece of equipment should be 100% tank focused (aside from trinkets) - this would mean losing all stamina socket bonuses on items - but this is something the leather users don't enjoy anyway, so it's something we know that Blizzard knows how to address in tanking mechanics.
The basic idea is that I want you to be able to wear your tanking gear, go dps (change away from shield) and do reasonably well in the same gear. I do not want stats on your tanking gear give ZERO dmg when you are dps specced.
Similarly, I want you to be able to wear your dps gear, spec tank (put on a shield) and do reasonably well in the same gear. I do not want stats on your dps gear to have ZERO tanking benefit when you are tank specced.
I'm not suggesting that the same gem/reforge job should be optimal for both roles, but rather that the all the stats on your gear should at least do something.
Of course, this highlights the problem with stamina gemming. If your tank set is including a lot of stamina gems/enchants those are stats that will do nothing when you change to dps. Already (at least at lower content levels) monks and druid gem/enchant for something other than stamina, in their tanking gear. This highlights that it is possible for tank specs to scale a secondary stat (or agi/str) to be more effective for tanking than stamina - and to make the right decision easier they should maybe just remove gems and enchants that focus on stamina. And scale fights accordingly. Maybe give tanks 25-35% stamina bonus instead of 15-25%.
While strictly speaking unrelated, what also brings me to the idea that all stats on your gear should do something was Teng's post earlier in this thread about experimenting with putting lots of crit on his gear (earlier PTR patch, not the current) and assessing his output in solo situations and 5 mans. This was immediately offensive to me, and I had to think a little to figure out why. The logic is still a bit muddled, but I think the picture is at least explainable, if not clear.
If it is viable, and indeed attractive, for solo and small group action to take your prot gear into a crit direction it means that if I invest high end raiding properties in my prot gear, I'm losing out - on something that could be fun. While this is not a cross spec delineation as the one above, it is highlighting that if you take your equipment in the direction of tanking you make it crippled and useless for any other purpose. This is not a problem experienced by druid and monk tanks to the same degree.
In our raids we have a feral druid, who may have a tanking trinket or two, but who is predominantly geared for feral. And when we need to spot fill a tank he just changes spec and tanks - in his dps gear - heroic 25 man content.
If the story had been the other way around and he was one of our main tanks and on a fight we needed only one tank, he could change spec and dps - in his tank gear - heroic 25 man content - and not suck monkey balls. Plate tanks with huge investments in dodge and parry (and stamina) do not get to do this.
If, in our raid, I was required to dps, it would be more beneficial to the raid if I change to my undergeared hunter than try to dps on the warrior. Yes, I do get fifth/sixth pick on dps plate, and I do have a dps set, but it's actually behind the ilvl of my hunter.
To get things slightly back on track - something in my mind is screaming active mitigation. Dk is the classic example of this. In Cataclysm I remember a lot of talk about dodge and parry being useless but that you should stack mastery because it improved both the healing and the absorb of death strike immensely.
Point being, we do not really need dodge and parry as stats that we can improve in the game. We can have a 0% dodge and parry chance, or a 5% dodge and parry chance. But it doesn't matter - now that we have active mitigation we do not need a mechanic in the game that allows us to improve dodge and parry.
In fact, if I was really forward looking, and looking to remove dodge and parry from the game, introducing active mitigation might be the first thing I'd do. This would underline that dodging and parrying are unreliable "old fashioned" tanking mechanics and deserve to be put out to pasture.
Or if they are not that forward looking they might examine the state of tanking now and determine that active mitigation obviates the need for erratic, random tanking mechanics like parry and dodge.
Yeah, I said obviate. Nice word, no?
I'm not a cliff's notes person, but I do want to highlight a couple of things I do feel would logically follow a removal of parry and dodge from items:
1) Stamina socket bonuses, stamina gems and stamina dominant enchants need to be removed from the game
2) Passive tank stamina bonuses need to improve from their current 15-25% range. Maybe to a 25-35% range.
I wonder, if they changed how DR worked if it could be more valuable. Something like this:
Originally Posted by Tengenstein
* Parry/Dodge scaling down to 1000-1100 rating per 1% avoidance, but no longer DR on it.
* Every time you don't Parry/Dodge, gain a 10% rating buff, removed on next avoid. (Similar to WotLK Blade Ward)
It would make avoidance more reliable and at the same time make the DR effect easier to comprehend.
The problem with avoidance is that in order to push the "X hits in a row" scenario off the table for 3 or more hits you really need more like 70%-90% avoidance (depending on X), even with no DR but reduced base value of the rating you'd have to stack the crap out of it in order get that high, even you even could, and then you're sacrificing the stats that allow you to deal with the "X hits in a row" scenarios.
Originally Posted by Airowird
Even with the "well you get 10% mastery boost until the next avoid" you're not going to have much mastery because you're stacking avoidance. And it still comes down to being unreliable and leading to spike increases.
The only way to make avoidance the way to go is to allow stacking to 70%+ and change the DR curve dramatically. But then tanking gets a lot less interesting because... well you never really get hit.
Dodge and Parry on gear are most certainly going away next expansion. Blizzard will be pushing active mitigation up, turning tanking into more of a DPS rotation similar to how Paladins play today.
Maybe they will also eliminate plate int gear, we'll see. No more avoidance plate gear means less gear overall and the drop chance for all other pieces of gear will increase.
Personally, I think there are way too many classes and specs in this game. If I had a magic wand, I would reduce the number of specs per class from 3 to 2, then eliminate mail gear (it makes no sense for the agile ranged hunters or wise casting shamans to wear mail in the first place anyway).
@Airowird & Aggathon I can't see them increasing the rate at which we get avoidance much because if they let us get avoidance high they run into the same problem they did in wrath where in order to challenge the healers they need to make single hits hit really hard and then eventually they'll hit a point where they have to add in Sunwell Raidiance/Chill of the frozen throne/boss expertise becuase they can't make things hit any harder without just one shotting a tank.
@Nydoria, I wouldn't be so sure, in Wrath we were pretty sure boss expertise was gonna be a thing. In cata we were sure the next expansion was gonna be the Emerald Dream, in the start of MoP we were told Mastery capping was not going to happen. I very much doubt they'll eliminate plate int gear, its been bandied about for years, and for what are probably non-issues for us it hasn't happened; what do they do with the old int Plate gear? How does it handle transmoging; can pallies mog mail into plate? or do we turn all the old int plate into int mail, so now hunters/shaman can reforge to look like plate wearing pallies? is their anything particularily wrong with having skewed and funky loot distribution? I'm been present at more thats healing/DPS gear arguments than wheter thats holy pally gear or not, and whilst occasionally theirs loot that just holy pally the tier tokens aren't, and alot of other bits of gear are only of interest to one spec, hell theirs even a weapon in ToT thats of interest to zero specs.
@Krennick, I never put lots of crit in my gear. I put lots of avoidance in it, which got me alot of crit. wether or not i think something is or isn't of merit is immaterial, if you think its worth doing do it. there are lots of things i shoot down that Blizzard have done anyway, I mad a very large post in the beta thread last year about how Hit and expertise where far too important, as prot rage gen was too low, that they'd have to nerf Def stance or Arms would just sit in it during PVP, and that giving Arms access to shockwave might be a tad powerful for them in PVP. Prot's rage gen was increased 2 weeks after the mop system patch went live, def stance was nerfed for DPS specs in 5.1 and the nerfed shockwave in 5.2. I wouldn't have let Arms/Fury have shockwave, and now Prot is stuck with broken versions of all it favourite toys because otherwise they're too powerful in PVP where Prot isn't welcome, did Teng shoot down this idea, yes, did it make a blind bit of difference to Blizzard, no.
I have no Qualms with DPS+sword and board being alright for tanking, you could quite easily do it by buffing Riposte to scale off off actual avoidance, and Revenge to remove the peter to pat pauls bits. It wouldn't be optimal, but it would be viable. I don't really have a problem with some tanks being able to use the same gear and pull half decent DPS after respeccing, its somewhat off put by the fact they have twice as much competition for leather stuff, especially if it means I have zero competition for loot, and it means I get to be the tank that doesn't have to DPS
Dodge and parry as concepts are not bad stats, using cata DKs as your example, becuase of the interplay between Bone shield Blood shield and avoidance, avoidance whilst not as good as mastery where not bad stats, more avoidance meant your Blood shield lasted longer which menat your Bone shield lasted longer which gave you 20% damage reduction, which meant your blood shields lasted even longer, which mean more full absorbs which couldn't remove a bone shield change. This is still true today and is why form a purely survival based view point DKs value avoidance over hit and expertise, even if it does make threat and disease management a bitch. A lot of warrior tanks would like something similiar for warriors, they want avoidance Sbar builds and if tottla damage reduction was a thing they'd be very strong builds. and that i think is the crux of the problem
We don't care about TDR, Tanking in wow has almost always been about surviving spikes, early on it was about pushing crit off the table, making sure shield Block lasted longer than its CD, later we stacked stamina, then CTC capped and then stacked stamina, its always been about making sure spikes don't kill us, its hardly ever been about taking less damage. I think they've missed a trick here active mitigation is more and more about timing with the boss specials and not so much with the keep this buff rolling or die to white swings, maybe white swings should be dangerous again and weakened blows a lot more important than it is now. Unfortunately TDR only really matters when healer mana is an issue, and in current raiding healer mana is only really an issue when raid healing, specifically when the raid is screwing up.
EDIT: I like avoidance, it adds an element of RNG to things and ifeel thats needed especially if in a place where we don't die to 3-hit strings. I like how 5.4 is shaping up with avoidanc eon gear, I'm fine that some tanks get DPS from tank stats and than other tanks get Survivability from DPS stats, and i'm fine that those tanks can use their "tanking gear" for DPSing becuase they had to roll against DPS to get it, wherase the tanks that get DPS from tanking gear cna't use it to DPS , but on the other hand they don't need to roll against DPS for it. Coincidence or providence i see it as kinda balancing out. If they can make it so warriors and DKs get sufficent DPS from tanking gear.
Ya Teng, that's kind of my overall point. Avoidance will never be good.
Said no EU player ever........ oh, wait.
Originally Posted by Tengenstein
Says you; I know I'm gonna max my avoidance to the hilt come 5.4 (for all the wrong reasons, but still...).
Originally Posted by Aggathon
Loot, ok wanted to make a short post, but loot is a long post topic. I'll try to stay on point.
The problem in the current loot system are the special little snowflakes - the equipment profiles that only very few specs can use. Having to cater to special snowflakes means we end up with "pally loot again" situations all the time. The principle, imo should extend to equipment profiles that are shared with only very few specs - like 3-4.
Here's what I would do: Make all int based gear cloth. Period. And if you're a class who can use leather/mail/plate have that particular cloth piece work as if it's leather/mail/plate and allow transmogs as well. Similarly, get rid of parry/dodge and make all plate str based, all mail agi based, all leather agi based. This would take us here:
Cloth/int - with spirit: Used by 2 (3) priest specs, 1 (2) druid specs, 1 monk spec, 1 (2) shaman specs, 1 paladin spec - total 6 (9)
Cloth/int - without spirit: User by 6 mage and lock specs, 1 (3) priest specs, 1 (2) druid specs, (1) monk spec, 1(2) shaman specs, (1) paladin spec - total 9 (12)
Leather/agi: Used by 3 rogue specs, 2 druid specs, 2 monk specs - total 7
Mail/agi: Used by 1 shaman spec and 3 hunter specs - total 4
Plate/str: Used by 3 dk specs, 3 warrior specs, 3 paladin spec - total 9
I would also collapse mail agi users into leather to achieve relative parity for loot competition. This would result in 4 categories of loot each with 9-12 specs competing for loot. This would then mean that the drop list for a raid doesn't have to include 250 items to cover all special situations, but can do with a relatively modest 120 and still have a similar amount of variety within each spec that we have now, except each boss will have a drop list of 8-10 items with only two for your spec so if you get a drop it is much more rarely the wrong drop. And the paladin healing gear (or other spec that noone needs) doesn't clog up the drops week on week, always going unused.
I think this would give a raid more control of its loot distribution and if ppl agree that tanks should get priority on loot (and I don't see why anyone would disagree with that) the tank preference can be taken even further than the current inherent one.
Additionally, this would make loot less of a stumbling block to Blizzard making smaller raids. Yes, I said smaller raids. I love learning new bosses and that, but I also like a raid being of a size where, when you have killed it and you know all the fights and ppl don't mess up, you can clear it in a couple of hours without speed running. It doesn't really feel like farming if you take more than a raid evening to clear content you have killed before.
Anyway, back to warriors. I never suggested we get rid of avoidance as a mechanic. Only that we should get rid of it on gear. There's nothing wrong with having a parry/dodge buff mechanic linked to other stats, procced from crits or as a component of revenge or shield slam - so you are actively choosing not just to build rage but to get yourself a parry or dodge buff for a short period of time. Or indeed in the stacking way suggested previously. Say every shield slam gives you a stacking 7% chance to parry, which is removed the first time you do parry.
I think the parry/dodge mechanic is in part an outdated method of tanking - it was never a good way to avoid damage spikes and therefore never a good way to tank. I think some element of parrying and dodging could be allowed to exist as flavour and used in an active way (like savage defense) - but I think having the stats on gear, getting diminishing returns doesn't feel like anything. You don't feel like you're getting a tanking bang for your buck by using dodge/parry gear. It feels like a wasted stat, and I honestly don't think turning it into crit is a step in the right direction.
Better imo to go the other way - give crit some tanking value, give haste some tanking value and get rid of dodge and parry on equipment.
I'll shut up now.
I forget where I read it, but they are making crit a saught after stat for wartanks in PVE.
You could read the past few pages of this thread or the ptr patch notes...
Originally Posted by Rystrave
Not according to my maths. Crit will have some surivivability value for us, but not nearly enough that we'd get wet over Crit gear. We'll get our crit from avoidance ratings via riposte.
Originally Posted by Rystrave
With this ID we have 3 ids left until 5.4 and I haven't seen actual numbers on protection warriors. At the moment all predictions that I see are more like: " I think.." , " It seems..." so it's all very vague and there is no actual mathematical proof that Stat X gives you the most smoothing for example. If something like that exists please let me know.
So what I would really be interested in is the TMI values. I messed around with the 530-6 version of simcraft but the results that I get for my EVILTwinPTR just don't make sense whatsoever. So I guess they haven't implemented the new prot warrior mechanics into the code I guess? Tengenstein, I saw in thecks blog that you made some suggestions regarding the warrior code. Do you know what plans they have for the prot warrior module?
Some question that I want a numerical answer to would be:
What will be the best smoothing stat?
If it's mastery until crit block cap what comes after that?
what is the loss in smoothing if I focus on a stat that gives me the most damage?
what exactly is the value of crit in both terms of smoothing and damage especially after crit block cap?
After mastery it's stam. Avoidance is still meh. Crit is meh. Really all this will do is give us some added innate utility but won't actually change our stat values. It definitely isn't going to hurt prot warriors as a class, but they won't be paladins. (at least that's my understanding, teng, do you agree).
Also with the "I think..." that's standard operating procedure with PTR/Beta patches. Things could change before the new patch goes live.
In pure damage reduction it'll still be Mastery > Avoidance > Crit.
The extra crit from avoidance will make avoidance comes closer to Mastery in pure TDR, but it'll still be far less reliable to become better, it's just good enough for a higher ilvl item without mastery to still be an upgrade.
I don't think we get enough stam out of gem slots to make it worth more than avoidance FOR 10 MAN a couple of stam trinkets are enough unless you really undergear the content or are just plain terribad. 10 man normal Bosses melee for less than their LFR counterparts. When I entered t15 i already had a 7.5s burst time, that a long ass burst time for me, if i throw in last stand, health stones, and a pot it goes up to 13.5 seconds. I didn't feel my EHP was challenged at all unless i stuffed up the fight mechanics and at the at point i'm not sure the extra 70K HP stam gems would give me would allow me to get away with stuffing it up that much. Combine this with 10 man Tank DPS being a significant part of the encountes i'd value avoidance over stam at present for gems and stam over avoidance for trinkets. maybe if they stick in something like Gormok or Auriaya, but their really aren't many Tank Wreckers left.
Originally Posted by Aggathon
@Gom, Most of the warrior Bugs should be worked out for 530-7 and out T16 tier bonii should be functionally, -6 amongst other things doesn't support riposte, has Sbar scaling far too well with AP, and is getting about 2x the block chance for mastery, nigh halving shield block effectiveness. i have no idea when they'll release -7
EDIT: On our 4 piece, its going to be more valuable to lower health tanks as the rage gain is based on %health lost, if a 600K tank takes a 200K they'd get 33 Rage, if an 800K tank took the same 200k hit they'd only gain 25 rage. Which is very erg and harks back to "trousers down" age of warrior tanking.
SimC 530-7 went live last night and a night's simming raises a few concerns.
Not a happy Teng.
- The 50% damage buff to Thunderclap means it now is on par with Revenge or better DPS even on single target
- Revenge Generating 20 rage means theirs hardly any DPS/Survivability loss to delaying Shield Slam for Revenge
- All the Rage Changes approximates to an 18% increase in RPS
- The extra rage makes us half a magnitude smoother to heal
- Avoidance is Lags behind every other stat except crit
- Crit still sucks for tanking
- Stam is better than mastery 1 for 1
- Avoidance is still worse than any other tank stat
- Sufficient Mastery negates the need for hit/exp capping
- As were not going to stack avoidance, Riposte is marginalized
- All the DPS buffs total to about a 3% DPS increase
woah, wait what? esplain....
- Sufficient Mastery negates the need for hit/exp capping
Even for AoE? I would think the damage buff to tclap would be significant since I can't hold AOE aggro against any other tank unless I'm really bustin' my chops.
- All the DPS buffs total to about a 3% DPS increase