Hi Teng, this is my raid log http://worldoflogs.com/guilds/270650/ Yeah I realized the reforge us a mess since I was too lazy and just using reforge lite, will fix it tomorrow. May I ask how much mastery are you sitting at now? In terms of dps do you see any difference?
You don't appear to have any recent logs.
The last time i dropped form a mastery to stam build i lost maybe 10% of my DPS. I sit on about ~58% mastery unbuffed, but i use Lao-chin's Liquid courage and Jade warlord figurine so 50% of the time i'm sitting on ~82% mastery in combat.
Oh wow, 80+%, I don't think I have the two trinkets you have anymore, maybe I should go b and farm it. But having said that, when I am at 50+% mastery I feel very comfortable with tanking, especially heroic jikun physical fights where I can tank 6 stacks of rake while our pally tanks dies at 2 if he forgets a Cd. I prefer the zandalari trinket cause I can couple it with last stand to max out my hp in dire situations. I will reforge tonight and see how it runs in raids.Also my logs are made private hence maybe that's why you can't see them. Will find a way to link it. Thanks for the help teng, your insight has been awesome =]
I think you'll find that if you forget block/barrier that you'll also die at 2 stacks.
Originally Posted by Luckybasterd
Just to clarify, at 539 ilevel I have 907779 health fully raid buffed (double stam trinket)
A talon rake hit while at two stacks would hit for 985165
Talon Rake is unblockable.
Another lesser known one is the Snapping Bite on tortos.
I'm out of popcorn, but I have pizza.
I knew that one at least!
Originally Posted by Booi
So this may happen:
Taunt Taunts the target to attack you, but has no effect if the target is already attacking you and increases threat that you generate against the target by 200% for 3 sec. 30 yd range. Instant. 8 sec cooldown.
Riposte (New) When you dodge or parry any attack, you gain 50% of your Parry and Dodge as additional Critical Strike for 20 sec. Warrior - Protection Spec.
3 seconds on the taunt threat I feel is not much, it's enough for a glyphed shield slam and a revenge back to back but that's it. We'll have to see how that pans out in a fight, though.
On a taunt swap you should always be lining up a burst after taunting off your co-tank anyhow so for those of us doing it right its not gonna make difference unless your co-tank is meter-whoring and refuses to back off for a couple of seconds, in which case this. Kinda sad this is needed but with LFR tanks often failing to understand the nuances of being a good tank it better to have than not.
Riposte i'm unsure how to feel about. It certainly a welcome buff, for a geared warrior its pretty much a straight +15% crit, and it certainly makes Parry and Dodge something more than reforge fodder, especially with the earlier enrage change, its just that i rather like the idea of prot warriors reforging in to crit if you're sufficiently into avoidance DRs, that crit/mastery gear may now be of use to us, and that warrior DPS gear for the most part could double as starter set of prot gear. The riposte gear takes all that away, gearing was gonna be interesting again, now its back to capping hit/exp then stam/mastery then avoidance as an after thought, because lets face it you're gonna be unlucky to not have riposte up >90% of the time whilst tanking. Maybe there's still a point where more avoidance doesn't have an appreciable effect on up time and the DRs are harsh enough, but i doubt we'll be giving up avoidance for crit now. And if we ever have another boss like Lei Shi we're back to being boring as hell and massively rage starved and thus much squishier than normal. Still Nice i'll have have something else to stack aside from stam once we reach our mastery cap.
The taunt agro burst is useful on tighter enrage timers and early swaps on high vengance fights too. The first swap on Heroic Jin'rokh is a common issue for my guild. Vengance levels ride high and and we pop hero on the pull after finding we get more out of it then due to ionization hurting dps uptime in the puddles. As a result I pop skull banner early and have all my cooldowns just expiring on the first swap and two crits can pull him back if I don't react in time to the taunt.
As for Riposte, all it does it make sure we won't be reforging crit any time soon. Likely to prevent itemization issues with the new tier. The only real thing I need to mention, because I am neurotic that way, is in regards to the avoidance DR.
The avoidance DR does not cause avoidance to diminish in value as you reach higher levels. The DR is in place to prevent exponential returns and to make avoidance more linear in value. i.e. Going from 10 to 11% avoidance reduces your damage taken by 1.2% not 1%, going from 30 to 31% avoidance reduces your damage taken by 1.4%, going from 50 to 51% avoidance reduces your damage taken by 2%, ect... The TDR you get from avoidance is actually linear when both parry and dodge are balanced.
Diminishing Returns has always been a reference to the total avoidance gain, not the relative gain vs the previous situation.
That said, DR still exists even with what you say. Adding dodge rating will give less reduction even in a relative term, because when you're near the cap (~65%), adding 1% dodge pre-DR does virtually nothing.
On the other hand, the Parry formula overshoots it's relative value, because it's cap is higher than 100%, reaching a relative value of infinity when you pass the 100% avoidance point. But because Parry and Dodge are additive, it results in a weird balancing exercise trying to add as much total avoidance as possible to get the most out of it and wether you get an increasing return out of avoidance rating or not totally depends on your current situation.
PS: What is said for Parry is also true for Block, with the exception that Block is a new chance after avoidance and thus, gets diminshed value as you get more dodge/parry.
TL;DR: Lot of math, avoidance stacking still sucks.
I think you misunderstood my argument, because you sound like you disagree with me despite our points being in line. Anyways, here is me rambling.
Diminishing returns is in relation to the formula:
1 1 k
- = - + -
x' c x
x' is avoidance after diminishing returns
x is avoidance before diminishing returns
c is the cap of 237.186 for parry and 90.6425 for dodge, not 65% (actually 66.5744%)because we aren't filthy paladins.
k is the avoidance constant for warriors: 0.956
You are absolutely correct when you say that they diminish towards an asympote that makes parry a better form of avoidance than dodge. Not stat in most cases since strength values on gear inflate parry before you even get to rating.
Now, when you plot the total damage reduction that is looked at in terms of a previous sate. Going from 14% to 15% is less of a total damage reduction than going from 24% to 25%. If you ignore diminishing returns, avoidance scales at an exponential rate.
What I may not have articulated as well, is that the diminishing returns on avoidance when combined with the exponential damage reduction properties of avoidance cause avoidance attributes to have linear damage reduction. The reason total avoidance is referenced, is because this assumes you balance parry and dodge as their values shift in terms of total damage reduction based on their individual curves. The DR was placed on avoidance, and armor, to maintain it's linear function as a tanking stat.
TLDR: Currently avoidance rating is worth just as much at 40% avoidance as it is at 10%. There is no magical point where you need to change your stat weight on avoidance. It takes the same amount of rating to reach a 1% damage reduction regardless of where you are on the curve, 885.
The addition of crit rating being given on dodge or parry events in relation to your parry/dodge rating would cause non-linear returns on avoidance. With the uptime and value of the proc increasing at the same time.
TLDR: Under the proposed change, there is no point where crit will pass parry/dodge assuming your initial stat weights placed parry/dodge ahead of crit. If you start with crit being weighted above parry/dodge then parry/dodge will eventually scale ahead of crit.
My point about avoidance DRs is that in order to keep Riposte up you're not going to need to stack much avoidance; You're gonna have to see a sizable increase in avoidance just to see noticeable increase in uptime. I really don't think we're gonna have to worry about the uptime, boss swing timers tend towards 1.5s and with a 20s window that 13(ish) chances to proc it, even without stacking avoidance we're sitting on ~30% And Theck calculated that the average revenge CD at that avoidance is a mere 4.4s. We're gonna have to be unlucky (or arse bosswards) to not keep it up. However the size of the buff depends on your parry and dodge chance, you may reach a point where you can spend 600 rating for a small decrease in TDR an unoticable uptime in Riposte and 0.3% crit, or you could just get 1% crit. Do any of us really care about that much about TDR? I don't, my healers complain about being bored not ooming! The more I think on it, maybe i'm already past that point.
EDIT: basically the weight from TDR for avoidance will stay stationary. Risposte uptime will be low at very low levels of avoidnace but scale very well with small avoidance gains but start flattening off considerable as you increase avoidance. The weight from crit from avoidance via riposte WILL change. and thats the problem, we don't really care about TDR, and were only gonna care about Riposte down time which with such a long buff duration is gonna minimal at moderate levels of avoidance. But because there are DRs on avoidance the amount of crit we get per rating from stacking avoidance will decrease as we stack more avoidance. we don't care about TDR, and at some point we won't see an appreciable uptime in riposte so it boils down to how do we want to pay for crit.
I must be unique then, because I do care about TDR, more correctly TTL which is closed tied with TDR, even if it is below smoothness in terms of priority. I do 10 man heroic content, 3/13 since it is hard to define what exactly that means. I bring this up because 10 man content is very different than 25 man content in a number of ways.
The first one is the since hotfixed high damage requirements. Even after this, it is safe to say that tank dps matters more in 10 man. This is especially true on 3 healer fights where tanks make up a greater percentage of the damage done. To be blatantly clear, I am not talking about threat but damage. I look to be 0.8% of a dps or better on certain fights.
The second one, which many people underlook, is the higher chance of going extended periods without heals. On a 2 healer fight especially, you will encounter times where through a combination of movement, raid healing, and "reasons" that a large window (in excess of 9 seconds, 6gcds) without direct heals will occur. Most of my deaths come in this window. Now to survive this window you need to either have enough EH to have your face removed or rely on averages to pull you through. The best way to do this changes from fight to fight.
The third way, which I have seen to trash 10 man tanks in the past, is that they take less damage. I personally think dealing without heals makes 10 man tanking harder despite this, but to each their own. The main takeawy being that you are less likely to be EH checked.
There are also some times when TDR can provide a boon to the raid. For instance, Jin'Rokh will only trigger static shock if his melee hits deal damage. On the first throw, popping avoidance cooldowns in combination with shield wall and barrier spam can prevent this from happening most of the time. This means that the healers can safely move to the pool quickly as there is no raid damage. You can also look back to MSV when Garjal copied your high damage onto raid members and maxium mitigation was key.
Similarily, there are times when raid healing is going to be rough and the heals you need are important. When the calls/cry go out on Horridon, avoidance cooldowns are very useful. There isn't going to be much if any overhealing for a few seconds and TDR is a factor.
I suppose the takehome message is that I don't prioritize avoidance as being greater than mastery but I also don't put 0 value on it. I currently value both avoidance stats at 0.5 of a mastery. Technically parry is at 0.49 for reforging purposes.
If we want to talk normal vs heroic, I often end up wearing dps gear and rage dumping into HS on normal modes at this time. Heroic modes will often have me throwing my hat with the tanking meta on. That meta is pure TDR and the dps meta is the first damage considertion I make when picking my outfit for the big dance.
The takehome message is that I switch my gear around constantly and have a rather full closet with gear that gets regemed based on what progession is that night. I need simcraft to get updated, but I suspect riposte will have me keeping avoidance above crit in survival gearing.
I was going to write a giant wall of math, but I'll stick to this for now:
Originally Posted by Frozen Gnome
1. Rewrite formula
If 1/x' = 1/c + k/x then
1/x' = x/cx + ck/cx
1/x' = (x + ck) / cx
x' = cx / (x + ck)
Note that you can also write this as c*r / (r + ckq) with r = rating and q = rating conversion rate
This formula then also becomes correct for Armor, with a c = 1 and kq = K as most people know it.
2. Damage comparison
The damage that goes through is past avoidance is
1-x' = (x + ck -cx) / (x + ck)
Any change in pre-DR avoidance can be written as
1-y' = (x + d + ck - cx - cd) / (x + d + ck)
with y' = new avoidance and d = change in pre-DR avoidance
The relative damage change is then new damage / old damage or
(1-y') / (1-x')
3. The Math
(1-y') / (1-x') = [(x + d + ck - cx - cd) / (x + d + ck)] / [cx / (x + ck)]
(1-y') / (1-x') = [(x + d + ck - cx - cd) * ( x + ck) ] / [(x + d + ck) * cx]
(1-y') / (1-x') = [(x² + dx + ckx - cx² - cdx) + (ckx + cdk + c²k² - c²kx - c²dk) ] / (cx² + cdx + c²kx)
(1-y') / (1-x') = [(1-c²)x² + (d+2ck-cd-c²k)x+ck*(d+ck-cd)] / (cx² + cdx + c²kx)
And no matter how you rewrite that, you can never remove x as a variable, thus there is no fixed value of damage reduction per d.
This could also be seen from step 1, where the formula is extremely similar to the armor formula, of which we know it is not lineair with relative damage reduction.
In fact, the only stat I ever know to scale as you say is Resilience, because it worked as x' = 1 - a^(k*x)
But the problem with this formula is that it is relatively demanding of server calculations, due to the power part.
4. Extra info
* This is all without actually considering base avoidance, which is not part of the DR formula, but counts towards your efficiency. And as different races have different base dodge/parry, it would simply never be equal for all classes, no matter how you write this out.
* x' = x when c / (x + ck) = 1, or c = x + ck. Write as x = c - ck = (1-k)c. For Parry this is 10.436% from Strength/rating a,d for dodge this is 3.99% or resp. 9236 parry rating (str conversion included) and 3530 dodge rating . Anything below that and you will actually gain more dodge/parry chance than you have pre-DR!
Edit: I would also like to say that "relying on averages" is what stuckup people call 'contradictio in terminis'. Reliance is having a guarantee, in this case a minimum amount of damage reduction. Average by definition is something for a long-term, not something that is of any relevance on short time windows. Using Jin'rokh is also a bad example, because static shock is not about TDR like Garajal, it's about avoiding attacks. For me in my stupidly itemised gear, mastery > avoidance for damage reduction, which kind of counters the point you're trying to make :p
An even easier argument would be that SBarrier is technicly a larger TDR, but because it's 1 hit absorbed, 2 to the face, we as tanks (atleast I do) tend to prefer the certainty of Shield Block reducing atleast 30% on each hit.
I'll agree with you on the fact that especially in 10man (heroic), avoidance matters more for survival, but just not for the reasons you mentioned. I'ld also mention that untill the next patch, Mastery also provides the best DPS past hit/exp caps because of the increased Enrage procs/uptime.
The value of avoidance over mastery doesn't come from total damage reduction (this is just a side benefit) - it's because it provides more combat table coverage than mastery while shield block is not up (when you are most vulnerable)
Depending on your gear levels... (~540 for me)
Avoidance rating is 126% more likely to help me than mastery at reducing damage while shield block is down.
And will reduce 682% more damage on average.
Avoidance is not a crap shoot.
Since when was avoidance part of TTL? It's unreliable by its very nature, technically with a lucky enough avoidance streak you'd only need a >0% to have an inifite time to live, and conversely with <100% avoidance ou may be unlucky and get no avoid during the point of zero healing.
And notice how in each of your examples of TDR being really good you say pop an avoidance cooldown, unfortunately Protection has no natural avoidance Cooldowns, so you're examples aren't really saying how good stacking avoidance or TDR are, they're saying how good the Stalwart Talisman of the Shado-pan assault is