The Weekly Marmot - How MoP's New Legendary Just Might Work

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The bonus proc idea would kinda not work, say you a shaman, you're elemental and resto, like, you're main specced resto right and you get this breathe, I'm assuming you only get a unique of 1, the problem we have is, which spec do I choose?

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I don't see how this is different that the current implimentation, no resto shammy is going to use dragonwrath as resto etc - if they where willing to put the work in they could assign a bonus to current spec which you pick when you upgrade. The procs have been a major aspect of the recent legendaries, and I think really help the give them a character.

I hope it isn't just a stat boost otherwise its a 'legendary enchant' and if that is the way they are going just remove them or make them transmog only, that to me would be a sign they really had no idea what to do with them.

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Originally Posted by Dagz

I don't see how this is different that the current implimentation, no resto shammy is going to use dragonwrath as resto etc - if they where willing to put the work in they could assign a bonus to current spec which you pick when you upgrade. The procs have been a major aspect of the recent legendaries, and I think really help the give them a character.

I hope it isn't just a stat boost otherwise its a 'legendary enchant' and if that is the way they are going just remove them or make them transmog only, that to me would be a sign they really had no idea what to do with them.

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I see what you're saying but remember that druid staff in firelands? The one that turned you into a fire cat? That felt legendary to them as an epic item and it was just a cosmetic thing, it doesn't have to be a proc, remember we're mainly talking about upgrading an item of your choosing, not so much a legendary item with a proc, it doesn't have to be a proc which was the idea, let alone being spec orient thing, it's a whole lot of work for blizzard to make it for every class and spec and to the have it change when you're changing spec, I'm just saying, I'm not sure how it would work.

Ah yes and our bear Druid complaining that the Ranseur was better itemeised for kittiy and the kitty staff was better itemised for tanking. I still hope one day to see the Inferno Bear and Pyrochicken equivalents.

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Originally Posted by eschatological

I am totally against forcing raiders to do dailies to catch up on legendaries. How is having to sign on every day to catch up better than having drops off all bosses in previous tiers (including LFR, something I didn't think of)? Raids aren't forced to run you through old content if you can LFR every tier, and pug a normal previous tier, which should be doable. I understand the old tiers become irrelevant and people generally don't pug them, but this might be a reason to do so, if you (IE, generally, everyone) can get drops towards building their legendaries in old tiers, you don't think people will pug them?

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I personally don't have a problem with either personally doing dailies or running an old normal raid, the issue I have is LFR because people are going to have this problem where if it's the old tier, why not the new tier in LFR?

And it's because the old tier is irrelevant that raiders don't generally go back to farm the old content, I mean, I'm not saying they never had done in the past but it's usually because they're working on the current relevant stuff, usually until they can plow through it and can just go back and do the old stuff, mind you, having said that, all things considered, there have been cases, especially with my guild, we couldn't do the new tier, mainly because of our gear, we started late in T11 as an example right, when T12 came out, we couldn't progress because so many of our players were, under tuned, shall we say, for firelands so we had to continually do T11 until we were finally ready and carried on from there.

I need to admit I only read the first page and then skimmed over the other two, but I nearly completely disagree with what you said about legendaries.

The main point I disagree with, is the idea that everyone should get a legendary. Think about the definition of "legendary" again. Epics are way to common, how legendary would an item be that everyone will have? Legendaries should be a status symbol that is the reward for the hard work of a raid, something special that says "LOOK AT ME!". Dragonwrath is so incredibly common nowadays, people that do not have one are the exception from the norm. Your suggestion with the long quest chain will mean that everyone will pick up a legendary at the end of the expansion. Yes, it might be the reward for being continously active and raiding for 1.5 years (or whatever), but how special would it feel if EVERYONE HAS IT?
Depending on the actual implementation this will create a dependancy between a guild and the player and no matter the implementation it will definitely create "drama" when picking the guy who gets the legendary. But drama is not a bad thing. Yes, it will not be an easy decision and someone somewhere will be unhappy, but a social game needs some kind of "social friction" I shall call it. You know why there is no interaction in the Dungeon or Raid Finder? Because all the instances/bosses are so damn easy that it is not REQUIRED to talk to anyone anymore. If people are then unable to handle this friction, the need to actually talk to other people, and therefore start crying all over the forums about how unfair their guild awarded the legendary, it is their problem and their guilds, not Blizzards.

Now, on to some smaller points.

• Balancing Legendaries across weapon types: What makes legendaries legendary are usually not the stats but some sort of proc. Dragonwrath had about 60 Int more then the caster staff off of Ragnaros (426 int + 3 sockets + 30 int = 576 int vs 466 int + 1 socket + 10 int = 516 Int). The proc gave the 10% DPS increase. This means that if the proc is balanced, the actual weapon type does not matter much. Even shields are an option, if the proc is a good one.
• Guessing who "needs" the legendary: This is only a problem if the legendaries get into the game when the content is still relevant. If you get the legendary when you kill the last boss of the expansion on heroic mode, then it does not matter who gets it from a progression stand point, because the progress is over. This directly ties in to my main point, where only very few people would get it and therefore it would really feel legendary. I don't think this is every going to happen though.
• Forcing people to run older raids: I don't see this as a problem. It is a legendary, put in some effort. Personally, I would much rather run through an old raid with my guild, then having to do Raid Finder on a weekly basis. Especially considering the old raids are most likely nerfed to hell, so that getting through them won't be a problem.

After rereading what I just wrote, this sounds incredibly elitist. Funny thing is, up till Cataclysm I did not raid in a top 1000 world guild, finished Cata at around 500. Never had even a chance of getting Atiesh in classic and still I did not think that that was Blizzards fault, I had a raid that just wasn't able to get it. Sure, I can blame Blizzard for that and ask them to hand me my orange pixels, but... really?

How do you balance a say a defensive proc on a shield with an offensive proc on a sword? accross multiple encounters, so defensive procs have been so good (thinking mirror or blackheart) that they are stillviable tiers after they come out, the same can't really be said for offensive procs. and if the defensive proc isn't op as hell tanks will still value static stats more than the procs.

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Originally Posted by Flipp

Now, on to some smaller points.

• Balancing Legendaries across weapon types: What makes legendaries legendary are usually not the stats but some sort of proc. Dragonwrath had about 60 Int more then the caster staff off of Ragnaros (426 int + 3 sockets + 30 int = 576 int vs 466 int + 1 socket + 10 int = 516 Int). The proc gave the 10% DPS increase. This means that if the proc is balanced, the actual weapon type does not matter much. Even shields are an option, if the proc is a good one.
• Guessing who "needs" the legendary: This is only a problem if the legendaries get into the game when the content is still relevant. If you get the legendary when you kill the last boss of the expansion on heroic mode, then it does not matter who gets it from a progression stand point, because the progress is over. This directly ties in to my main point, where only very few people would get it and therefore it would really feel legendary. I don't think this is every going to happen though.
• Forcing people to run older raids: I don't see this as a problem. It is a legendary, put in some effort. Personally, I would much rather run through an old raid with my guild, then having to do Raid Finder on a weekly basis. Especially considering the old raids are most likely nerfed to hell, so that getting through them won't be a problem.

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I would like to touch up on a couple of points here, these are viable reasons but your reason of obtaining the legendary on last boss on heroic difficulty almost defeats the purpose of everyone being able to get it, with time investment and effort, yeah sure, everyone can still get it eventually but for a long while, in my opinion, only a handful of people will get to have it, sure there's prestige for those players but then you're going to have a similar sort of thing when we had class specific legendary weapons where people or going to feel bummed out, but this is what Lore was suggesting, that if you're behind and guilds don't want to do old content because of their progression on the legendary at this point then you, as a player would have to put in personal effort via any other viable means (for weekly marmots sake, this makes it the dailies) to catch up, again, I'm not saying players and guilds don't run old content but because with the way this is sounding, there's more effort involved than before.

Procs for the legendary would have to be balanced, because this is the first time that you everyone can get one and can be on any item to also change when you're changing spec, I mean, you do have to think about pvp as well, not just pve, if done right, I can see it being pulled off.

On a totally different note, this is kinda the first time this is going to happen, it's all speculation on how this could potentially work based upon how legendaries worked in the past, it could just be a big mess, I think this a bigger thing now, we'll have to see how this will work and whether or not the concept of legendary will make or break.

Please, read my entire post. Yes, Lirron, getting the Legendary by defeating the very last heroic boss means that it will be rare. It will mean they can be "legendary" again and not "differently colored common items". That is the point.

Yes, procs for the weapons need to be balanced. But what Lore was saying, was that a 1H would be very different from a 2H and then from a Shield. Lets assume that the procs give you 10% DPS, 10% Healing or reduce damage taken by 10%. Roughly balanced, exact details per fight do not matter because the legendaries are only available after the last heroic boss. 

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Originally Posted by Flipp

Please, read my entire post. Yes, Lirron, getting the Legendary by defeating the very last heroic boss means that it will be rare. It will mean they can be "legendary" again and not "differently colored common items". That is the point.

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I don't get it...who cares if you get something by killing the last boss on heroic? You're done at that point.

I got my h-dw axes on our first kill...who cares? We'd beaten the game. Our mage (who was getting our first dragonwrath) didn't get his legendary until after we killed h-rag...now that happened to be useful in the next tier, but if it hadn't been what would the point have been?

If the thing isn't going to help you progress...why even bother with it? Honestly, h-dw could have dropped nothing at all and it would have made no difference...it's the last boss. My axes are going to what? Make leveling in MoP easier? Who cares?

Legendaries are just an awful idea. And having them only be attainable after you kill the last boss of an expansion is even MORE awful.

Yes, it ultimately does not matter any more for progress, which means that the exact balance is not a problem. Dragonwrath has shown what huge problems a progress relevant legendary can create. With a rare legendary after the progress is over, all these problems are avoided and the legendaries have a meaning again.

Lirron, I see you point. I also think that Blizz won't put the work in to make it specific to specs, which is a shame.

Ion, it wouldn't be the first legendary that drop late into progress.

But if blizzard want legendaries to be 'legendary' they have 2 options massively low drop rate, so even if you raid consistantly its not gauranteed, that only one person can loot at a time - and all associated issues. Or making it cool but ultimately not essential and a tonne of work - which means the fact a % of people won't bother and that will limit the number you will see. Otherwise everyone has one and that isn't the idea surely

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Originally Posted by Flipp

Yes, it ultimately does not matter any more for progress, which means that the exact balance is not a problem. Dragonwrath has shown what huge problems a progress relevant legendary can create. With a rare legendary after the progress is over, all these problems are avoided and the legendaries have a meaning again.

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Have meaning...how? They'd be the very definition of meaningless...did you like...read what I wrote?

The only people who would care would be PvPers...since they'd be so clearly overpowered (or so I assume you mean when you say "the exact balance is not a problem") and progress is over...well then, you're breaking PvP so you can give out a meaningless PvE "reward".

They then have a meaning in that they are hard to get and having one means you put a fuckton of effort into it, as a GUILD/RAID! See, legendaries should not be just another item you just get...

In that scenario, the items could be disabled in PvP, no problem there. Basically they are then more or less transmog gear.

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Originally Posted by Flipp

They then have a meaning in that they are hard to get and having one means you put a fuckton of effort into it, as a GUILD/RAID! See, legendaries should not be just another item you just get...

In that scenario, the items could be disabled in PvP, no problem there. Basically they are then more or less transmog gear.

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But this is what I'm trying to say, yeah okay, as the last tier comes out, everyone who's getting the legendary has already put A LOT of effort in and put a great deal of time investment in to get this far, I mean, sure, heroic raiders will get it but then what about those that don't get it in time for the next expansion? Let alone being replaced before the first tier of raiding in the next expansion, but that's going off topic.

I get your point of "well, these guys have done it on the hardest of the hardest stuff in the last tier of the expansion, you put a lot more work than any other and here's your legendary", I get that but I just don't feel that it should be something the every single player out there should accomplish it at that point because they've already put in the time investment and a lot of work into it already, of coarse it depends how the whole 'getting the legendary' works out until then lol, I don't know if you can see what I'm saying here, but there'll be some players that'll feel bummed out about doing so much and feeling like they haven't gotten anywhere near, at least for a while, just until they can farm normal and work their way into heroic, should this be the scenario they take.

Long time viewer, first time poster here. However, felt that i have some points that you missed in this weekly marmot.

First: Regarding balancing!
You talk alot about what would make a 1hander as good as a 2hander regarding stat wise and so on, and i feel like you are missing what is making legendaries actually legendary.
I agree that its useally something to do with the ilvl and therefor have room for more stats, but what truely makes them legendaries is the procs that useally comes with them.
Wouldnt it be posible to balance this proc across all the weapon types there is, so it would perhaps be a bit stronger for a 1hander, or make it scale according to your whole gear set.

2nd: Regarding starting late!
I think you are forgetting about X-realm raiding wich allow you to do older tier raids across realms. I've heard about a lot of ppl who have collecting their Dragonwrath through these or gotten the achievements they were lagging.
At the time T15 comes out, then T14 should be more or less farmable for most ppl, atleast those who would think of legendaries anyway.

3rd: Blizz ideas.
Didnt they mention something about how they wanted us to aquire legendaries in the future, and that they wanted it to be more "random". By random i mean that you cant set a date for when you actually aquiere the item like you were able to with Dragonwrath after starting the quest.

Regards
Stougaard

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Originally Posted by Stougaard

3rd: Blizz ideas.
Didnt they mention something about how they wanted us to aquire legendaries in the future, and that they wanted it to be more "random". By random i mean that you cant set a date for when you actually aquiere the item like you were able to with Dragonwrath after starting the quest.

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My idea of random would be that the drops themselves are completely random at any given boss instead of it being 100% drop rate.