Struggling with Arms Warrior DPS

Hey all,
Prior to patch 4.3 I went Fury and had solid deeps, infact I still have solid deeps as Fury. However, in my current raid group in DS, when I go Arms my dps and overall damage goes down quite a bit.
My gear, talent pts, glyphs, reforging, gems/enchants, etc are all up to par for Arms PVE. (though of course I'll take any pointers for improvement on that as well).
I have my stance dancing macro'd and usually go Charge/Berserker Rage, then Rend, CS, MS, OP, and use Slam when everything else is on cd. I use HS with my 2 set bonus. I use power auras to help with the 4 set bonus with CS.
Overall though as I mentioned my DPS is going down a lot. This is the first time I'm used Arms as PVE, so I'm not sure if it's just a lack of experience or a combination of things.
On a raid practice dummy I average around 28k after about 5 minutes.
Anyways, any help/advice would be appreciated! Thanks!

I pull off similar numbers on a dummy and that's with a 410 weapon, arms shine in real environment with lots of raiddamage (like.. Ultraxion!) -> spamming heroic strike on top of your regular priority list. It's a straight forward specc (just like fury), there's not much you can do wrong... except for pushing your hs hotkey to often and getting rage starved.

Also: i'd recommend a power aura for a battle trance procc -> try using it for your heroic strikes

Yeah - what Klausi said - I do similar damage as well on the dummy, with much the same gear. Only difference is that you are speeced into B&T and have left out Executioner. I would have used 2 point you put in incite and put them in executioner. The extra attackspeed does mean quite a bit of extra rage/more damage during exe-phase.

Besides that practise, practise, practise and it will come. I have been exactly where you are a month back when I shiftet to arms from fury.

Btw I used Landsoulds POV-video on madness heroic and got a few tricks from that. Im guessing you can do the same and easily pull 50+k on Madness normal like the other warrior in your guild ;-)

Thanks for the help so far from all. I put those 2 pts from incite back into executioner. I suppose it's mainly practice practice at this point. One thing I noticed is I seem to have to click twice on my macro for OP when stance dancing. Is this normal?

Also, while I prefer to base my true dps output on the results in actual raid fights, what's a solid number to average at on the raiding practice dummys based on my gear?

Provide us with a armoury link please.

Here's link - http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...rikur/advanced

Unless I am mistaken in arms you never use Slam. Even if other things are on CD, it resets your swing timer which is bad. It might be that it's just bad for fury (xcluding proc) and not as big of a deal in arms, but I'm pretty sure the same rule still applies.

@greg: you are mistaken slam is the filler for arms whenever the rest is on cd.

Gear looks good maybe get the vp belt? Get 3/3 incite unless you're doing yorsahj HC. I pull 40k+ dps with slightly lesser gear on ultraxion25 as arms. Raiddummy is only good for practicing the rotation not for real dps numbers imo. Hard to tell where you would loose dps without logs.
-Deadly calm and the first 2 creche of the final dragon procs line up so they should be used together make sure to spam HS while it is up
-saving recklessness for sub20% unless the fight is longer like yorsahj HC or madness
-MS should be used on cd should average out to MS every 4,5-5 secs if you look at the logs
-I find it helps to track the icd for taste for blood so you know when OP is coming up (NeedToKnow or weakaura for example)
-I open with rend>MS>CS>OP>MS>OP
-Make sure you don't loose any time with stancedancing
I'd say stick with arms should get better once you're used to it. If you have a log I can take a look at it.

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Originally Posted by Gregasaurous

Unless I am mistaken in arms you never use Slam. Even if other things are on CD, it resets your swing timer which is bad. It might be that it's just bad for fury (xcluding proc) and not as big of a deal in arms, but I'm pretty sure the same rule still applies.

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This is so wrong. So so wrong, like telling an arcane mage not to use arcane blast wrong.

The reset on the swing timer for Arms just brings the average cost of that ability up a little, to about 20, instead of the 15 the ability itself just costs.

Your main priority is MS>CS>OP>Slam, using HS to dump rage. Although 3/3 incite is a small single target damage increase, I still keep Blood and Thunder for Zon'ozz HM, Yorsahj, Hagara (tombs), Blackhorn, Spine (bloods), Madness (bloods/terrors).
For more details about Arms Warrior strategy check out my blog http://kura.grown-ups.us

For reference, I pull about 33k average on dummies in 397 gear, and my highest ranking on a fight like ultraxion put me at 45k.

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Originally Posted by Tengenstein

This is so wrong. So so wrong, like telling an arcane mage not to use arcane blast wrong.

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Think you exaggerated a bit much there?

Well if arms has 4 attacks in it's core rotation and you are advising someone not to use one, yea that's pretty wrong. But let's not misinform this thread any more by arguing about it?

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Originally Posted by Kurathikai

For more details about Arms Warrior strategy check out my blog http://kura.grown-ups.us

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That seems like quite a nice guide you've got there.

As a prot warrior, I have switched my offspec from fury to arms for this tier and Yor'sahj heroic has given me plenty of opportunity to try it. I'm not currently stance dancing (thought I'd wait til I felt a bit more comfortable with the 'rotation' until I tried that). One of the things I struggle with a bit is knowing when to slam. The guides (yours included) often say MS->OP->Slam but unless I'm mistaken, taste for blood doesn't really line up like that - so often you would have to wait for OP. I get the feeling that the hesitation is effectively delaying my MS. I'm wondering whether there are tricks to this other than just learning to get a feel for OP (or as suggested above, some addon to track the ICD of TfB). I also wonder whether MS->Slam/CS->OP as the rotation would be more reliable?

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Originally Posted by swelt

Well if arms has 4 attacks in it's core rotation and you are advising someone not to use one, yea that's pretty wrong. But let's not misinform this thread any more by arguing about it?


That seems like quite a nice guide you've got there.

As a prot warrior, I have switched my offspec from fury to arms for this tier and Yor'sahj heroic has given me plenty of opportunity to try it. I'm not currently stance dancing (thought I'd wait til I felt a bit more comfortable with the 'rotation' until I tried that). One of the things I struggle with a bit is knowing when to slam. The guides (yours included) often say MS->OP->Slam but unless I'm mistaken, taste for blood doesn't really line up like that - so often you would have to wait for OP. I get the feeling that the hesitation is effectively delaying my MS. I'm wondering whether there are tricks to this other than just learning to get a feel for OP (or as suggested above, some addon to track the ICD of TfB). I also wonder whether MS->Slam/CS->OP as the rotation would be more reliable?

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Its a priority not a rotation: if MS and CS are on CD and OP isn't available you Slam, you don't wait for OP. Sometimes your cycle will be MS>Slam>Slam, The only real danger is if you delay OP enough that you much TfB procs, but that's a whole 4GCDs so shouldn't really happen unless you let rend fall of or sunder fall off, both of which indicate something else is rather wrong with your ability usage

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Originally Posted by Tengenstein

Its a priority not a rotation: if MS and CS are on CD and OP isn't available you Slam, you don't wait for OP. Sometimes your cycle will be MS>Slam>Slam, The only real danger is if you delay OP enough that you much TfB procs, but that's a whole 4GCDs so shouldn't really happen unless you let rend fall of or sunder fall off, both of which indicate something else is rather wrong with your ability usage

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^^This
I use PowerAuras to track when my TfB will proc. Other buff addons are capable of this as well. Occasionally you will be able to fit in OP twice after MS because it just works out that way with the timer, but most of the time between MS you'll use both OP and Slam, although Slam might be the attack you use first if the others are all on CD. You do not want to spend time waiting around for your stuff to come off CD. Getting practiced with the priority system will help with this immensely, and I would recommend some way to track your TfB procs, be it PowerAuras, Elkano's Buff Timers, Forte Xorcist, or any other.

I know the theory behind it, but I'm more interested in the practice. The reality is that it's best to be pressing the buttons early, otherwise a 1.5s GCD creeps into 1.7 or 1.8, and before you know it your MS is delayed by half a second in every cycle. I'm a big fan of power auras - but 'action usable overpower' is a very reactive way of handling taste for blood. Sometimes I get that feeling where I am 'in the zone' and on top of my rotation, but sometimes I lose that and either miss a slam opportunity because OP wasn't up when I expected it, or my rotation is otherwise slightly delayed and I hit slam/OP when I should have hit MS.

While thats true, given the periodic activation of Overpower its not actually all that bad to react late to it, aslong as you don't delay it by more than 5 seconds and thus munch a TfB, you could literally delay pressing OP by 4.5 seconds EVERY TfB proc and still get the same number of OPs in over the course of the fight. You don't need to use everyTfB proc as soon as possible. You just need to use every one.

You're definitely right that you want to be pressing the buttons early. Especially when you step up to stance dancing macros. PA helps me be aware of what ability I should use next. I track the duration of how long I have had TfB up without using it, and make sure to use it before it hits 6 seconds, so I don't waste any procs. I keep an eye on my MS timer, so I know anytime that is coming down to 1 second, MS will be my next attack. I also use a different macro that combines the checks of MS being on CD and TfB not being available to tell me to use Slam.
Addons will ultimately not play the game for you, though, and it's better to do something than wait between every ability just waiting for something to pop up. Once you get into that habit though, of not wasting a single global or any time in between, you'll find that you get better at timing which attacks you use in between MS.
Just to clarify, I do not use "Action Usable" to track Overpower. I use "Buff" Taste for Blood. Much less reactive as all I'm tracking is the 6 second window before I waste one.

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Originally Posted by Kurathikai

I track the duration of how long I have had TfB up without using it, and make sure to use it before it hits 6 seconds, so I don't waste any procs.
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Just to clarify, I do not use "Action Usable" to track Overpower. I use "Buff" Taste for Blood. Much less reactive as all I'm tracking is the 6 second window before I waste one.

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Thanks - I think that's exactly what I was looking for.

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Originally Posted by swelt

I know the theory behind it, but I'm more interested in the practice.

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Just look at the ret paladins, they have <4.5s cooldown on their main nuke thanks to a talent but they still use two fillers because it's greater dps gain than waiting for ~1 second.

Arms is pretty straight forward, ms+filler1+filler2 - repeat and those "filler" hit fairly hard on their own.