Morchok first I believe, but what next ?
Morchok first I believe, but what next ?
Morchok is certainly a very doable boss, but Hagara is supposedly easier (at least on 25 man). After that, Yor'sahj for 10m, Zon'ozz for 25m, then the other. If you are coming here to ask that question, those will probably take you long enough for more solid information to be out. Be advised that Yor'sahj and Zon'ozz are required to reach Hagara, so depending on the strength of your guild you may or may not wish to skip there first/second.
In my opinion from what I've done.
Yor'sahj (easier on healers and dps)
Warlord Zon'ozz (You need good everything, the tank will be getting hit for 100k at CTC and in full H t12, healers have to push big numbers and tight enrage).
Hagara (people able to adjust on the fly, and very good burst healing, also good communication between tanks and healers).
Ultraxion (Baller dps, heals, tanks can be meh)
Warlord (haven't done it)
Spine (sounds like a bitch, I haven't done it))
Madness (I don't want to know)
((I don't raid 25's so this might be a bit off its what I heard.))
Is this still a good overview? Would someone care to expand on why certain encounters are easier than others and the differences between the 10/25 man priority? After getting down Morchok last night we took a poke at Yorsahj but I don't think that was the right next step for us in 25 man.
Wow Progress currently shows this for 25 man:
H: Morchok (25): 1443 (35.89%)
H: Warlord Zon'ozz (25): 337 (8.38%)
H: Yor'sahj the Unsleeping (25): 309 (7.68%)
H: Hagara the Stormbinder (25): 513 (12.76%)
H: Ultraxion (25): 172 (4.28%)
H: Warmaster Blackhorn (25): 102 (2.54%)
H: Spine of Deathwing (25): 16 (0.40%)
H: Madness of Deathwing (25): 14 (0.35%)
Seems to indicate that Morchok -> Hagara -> Generals might be a better entry point for 25 man raids.
H: Morchok (10): 9195 (24.22%)
H: Warlord Zon'ozz (10): 1534 (4.04%)
H: Yor'sahj the Unsleeping (10): 2976 (7.84%)
H: Hagara the Stormbinder (10): 969 (2.55%)
H: Ultraxion (10): 1063 (2.80%)
H: Warmaster Blackhorn (10): 309 (0.81%)
H: Spine of Deathwing (10): 36 (0.09%)
H: Madness of Deathwing (10): 8 (0.02%)
Figures for 10 man raids seem to indicate that Yor'sahj is significantly easier. Sample size for 10 vs 25 is much bigger.
Hagara is defintely easier in 25 man than Zon'ozz, however, many guilds (especially early on and those very serious about progression) choose to work on Zon'ozz before Hagara due to the fact that once you kill Hagara, you're progression for the week is likely done (assuming you're just barely able to clear the earlier heroics, working on Ultraxion or the last 3 bosses is a much steeper learning curve/gear check).
And for Yor'sahj, yes, the scaling for 10->25 isn't even close to being the same which makes the encounter seem significantly easier in 10 man.
If you're just downing Heroic Morchok 25 now, I'd suggest Hagara->Zon'ozz->Yor'sahj->>Ultraxion->Blackhorn->>>Spine->Madness
If you're just downing Heroic Morchok 10 now, I'd suggest Yor'sahj->Zon'ozz->Hagara->Ultraxion->>Blackhorn->>>Spine->Madness
Hagara was easier due to the option (exploit) remove watery enchantment during ice phase completely on all ranged/healer, now you have to push a lot of hps during frost phase if you still don't want to 'dance'.
10m difficulty differs a lot depending on your lineup, almost feels like the beginning of t11:
- having a dk/feral over a blocktank for hagara greatly decreases the burden on dps and coordination (=no taunt game)
- if you happen to have a resto shaman or disc priest that's a huge hitpoints buffer on fights like Morchok (jeez those mages and furies bear nothing!)
- bring a rogue, have one of your dps reroll if necessary. Combat specc on gunship 2.0 and Zon'ozz or Sub on Spine ... well just have a look on WoL and you'll get it.
- if you don't have at least 2 legendaries yet.. happy farming. You won't replace that damn staff for t13 heroic items even after the nerf, best case that's a 6k difference (~ 10%) pre modifier like eg on Zon'ozz or Madness
- don't use a prot warr for maintanking, they are sadly subpar this tier in every way (dps, cooldowns, hps) and only shine on Spine. Luckily arms shines on several fights and is rather easy to play.
If your raid can pull 212k raid wide DPS on Ultraxion, then H Ultraxion is very doable. H Ultraxion is an extremely simplistic fight that's linear, hardly any random chance deaths. I recommend Morchok -> Ultraxion(If your dps can do it), if not -> Hagara -> Yor'shaj -> Zon'ozz -> Blackhorn
212k rDPS isn't enough to kill H-Ultraxion. To kill him 1 second before the explosion kills you (in 6:05), you need 233k rDPS, and to kill him before the aura kills you (~5:30), you need more like 258k rDPS (or a normal mode ultraxion kill in ~3:30)
85 000 000 damage / 365 seconds = 232 877 dps.
85 000 000 damage / 330 seconds = 257 576 dps
Pretty sure you're more apt to be able to do 5:30 w/2 than 6:05 w/3 healers...your dps SHOULD be pulling more than a paltry 25k if you think you're going to kill h-Ultraxion, so adding another dps should mean you're more apt to beat the "soft" 5:30 enrage than the hard 6:05 enrage.
It's very definitely a throughput check either way you slice it.
Regardless of the amount of players for each role, that is the minimum dps required to kill the boss. going to 2 healers simply lowers the individual dps requirement for each player.
Recommended progression path for 25m: Morchok, Hagara, Yorsahj, Warlord, Ultraxion, Warmaster, Spine, Madness
On 10m I hear Warlord is much harder, and Hagara is harder than 25m too, so: Morchok, Yorsahj, Hagara, Ultraxion, Warlord, Warmaster, Spine, Madness
From easiest to hardest (on 10man): Morchok, Ultraxion, Yorsahj, Hagara, Warlord, Warmaster, Spine, Madness. I mean, you can see it, guilds struggle a bit to get to 3/8HC and then after that point they instantly jump to 5. Warmaster is definitely the hardest of the first 6 and Spine/Madness are about the same I'd say.
Also Heroic Hagara is far harder on 10 for two reasons:
1) Frost pillars (the ice phase 'totems') have 1 million less hp going from 10 to 25 man. Which means the damage per person on 10 is higher.
2) There are 4 extra lightning totems on 10's... Which is just WTF
Killed it? No. Seen the whole fight? Yes.
Heroic Spine sure was nothing more then getting the right class balance and hitting the right target at the right time. Nothing really new at all, but the layers of dps check and the room for error was far less then Madness.
The hardest part of madness is making sure you put the corrupting parasite in the right place, making sure you don't use a tanks to random stupidity. Either way I can base it off of the sear number of attempts it took the 'average' guild to kill Spine or Madness.
Also are you a 10 or 25man guild? I hear 10 Madness is kinda hell-ish from my buddies still in 10man guilds.
I'm doing it on 10-man so if you are doing 25 man yes you are right. As I've seen so far, the slightest error in positioning, the slightest healing or DPS mistake will wipe you. Not to mention that the fight is stupid in the sense that it goes from 10 minutes easy to sudden 5 minutes of hell in the end. Spine was also like that, but at least had a bit more margin for error and relied mostly on the raidleading planning the fight correctly.
Spine on 25 man is nightmarish in terms of dps check. Pre-nerf (since it will be nerf'd tomorrow). While you finishing progress on the last plate you can still easily miss the check on second or even first because you normally only scrapping by crit rng and healer help.
^ Same on 10, but I guess on 25 you got more RNG since you got more DPSers.