No stamina gems at all?

Mastery is not part of effective health until you have reached full CTC. You certainly don't need 150k unbuffed post nerf, you can be quite comfrotable doing HCs with ~160k unbuffed now.

My healers say they'd OOM if they just spam healed. maybe they're wrong, but they seem to be keeping me up fine

YOU said "Your #1 goal should be to get full CTC" and then tell the OP to gem Stam instead of Parry. last time i checked Stam didn't add much to CTC, but parry did. I have thread quite a few threads, I don't know if they're in the millions now, but i've read a few, and generally they tell me FINE EMBER TOPAZ, not DEFENDERS DEMONEYES, they also tell me ETERNAL rather than AUSTERE. I've shown my maths, you claim theire is no math, I accept defeat, I can't counter arguments based on something that doesn't exist.

I see threads like this all the time. Usually, I stay out of it but this one is getting a lot of attention, so Ill comment.

First of all, stam stacking was a result of "max amount of hits before death without healing" (quoted from a TS guide) which,also resulted in spam healing. Unless blizzard goes back to a similar format, I doubt we will ever see stam as the primary stat of choice for tanks. In fact, Blizz has clearly stated thats NOT what they want to see...

as for the OP, everything that teng has mentioend is what ive also read. His advice is sound.

Man talk about some trash talking exiled... your repeatedly calling people in the conversation bad tanks that don't research or know what they are talking about.

All the recent warrior threads on EJ and other places support that Eternal Shadowspirit Diamond is the best meta for tanking based on overall damage reduction if you have even a decent amount of combat table coverage. Pretty much everything teng and Big are saying is exactly correct for a protection warrior and has been exactly correct for almost all of cata.

Exiled your wording is so terrible, whole last post is full of nonsense. You're calling people out to be 100% wrong but i find your post complete bullshit no offense. "mastery is part of EH in cata which means EH is still king" That's just so terribly backwards we're stacking mastery for damage reduction and smoothing damage out not for EH. You can call mastery EH only once you're unhittable and this tier I'm only using unhittable set on baleroc. Current fights I just don't need to be unhittable to not be 2 shot. Maybe in dragonsoul we'll need mastery for our EH but for now its a really crappy argument.

Healer mana does matter a bit less then in T11 but its far from limitless and it also doesn't bring you back to full hp instantly every time. I'd say damage reduction matters, on my priest i choose between a smite, greater heal or flash heal depending on the hp of the tank. I'd even go so far as to say that stamina is nearly worthless once you got "enough" of it. With "enough" being a rather subjective term.

Not quite sure what you want to say about the metagems, sounds like a load of rubbish. Armor meta effects EH just like stamina does and both effect damage reduction just like ctc does, its not that hard to compare the advantages of both gems. Your rng rambling sounds like a bad gambler on a loosing streak....

In terms of the defender's/health in my previous post I stated that maybe 150k is enough, I have no idea post nerf as I was way past that point when the nerf hit as were the tanks in my alt raid. Could i be wrong and 150k be more than enough? Yes I could be, however again that is more a subjective opinion.

As far as overall damage reduction, yes the eternal is better, however overall dmg reduction is irrelevant until you reach full CTC, the spike damage is what matters.

As far as mastery is EH, it is you get full CTC which is very possible then it becomes EH because you can rely on everything that hits being blocked.

I will just leave quotes from the Ej prot warrior thread backing things I stated in previous posts.

Post #1
Stamina ≥ Mastery > Parry ≥ Dodge

Your first priority when gearing up is to ensure that you have enough health to survive unavoidable burst damage. Whether it's a Mangle + Melee on Magmaw, a simultaneous Crackle + Shadowflame Breath on Nef, or any number of other nasty combos, you don't want to be vulnerable to getting one-rounded if you can help it. So be sure not to skimp on the stamina, especially if you're just starting to gear up your character for tanking.

Post #560 page 23
2. At high block amounts, Eternal Shadowspirit Diamond is technically superior to the Austere gem in terms of raw DTPS (damage taken per second), but it's a miniscule difference. Personally, I recommend the Austere gem until you're actually block capped, since it'll make those occasional unblocked hits a bit less lethal, which the Eternal gem won't do.

Post #566
Past a certain amount of block, the Eternal gem is better in terms of raw DTPS (damage taken per second).

However, if you're not block capped, the Eternal meta gem will make your damage intake spikier than the armor gem, since the unblocked hits will be bigger.

It's a miniscule difference either way, though. Personally, I'm still using the Austere gem because unblocked hits are scary enough as it is.

Post #29
I'm with ComMcNeil on this one.

The time of spike damage has passed and we're not in the risk of dying in two hits anymore. Even a "spiky" tank, who focuses on avoidance, will take at least 5-7 shots before going down and that, to me at least, is already smooth enough. The point then becomes lowering damage taken, which it seems is accomplished through pure avoidance over mastery stack, at least until a certain threshold.

Unfortunately, I lack the knowledge to do my own math or double check these numbers, but according to this post from Tankspot parry+dodge will result in less damage taken until 5400 combined avoidance ratings (mastery included). From there on out it's best to stack mastery.

Also, regarding the threat discussion, assuming these values are correct (I had them saved in my HD from patch 4.0.1, unfortunately can't quote the source):

Concussion Blow - (75/100*AP)*2
Shockwave - (75/100*AP) *2
Heroic Throw - (AP*0.5+12)*1.5
Devastate - [1.5(weapon dmg)+336*(number of sunders on target)]

Our priority becomes:
Shield Slam > Revenge > (Rend - with 30% debuff and/or through BnT) > SW = CB > HT > (Regular Rend) > Devastate

Which probably means Devastate will mostly be used to prevent stacks from dropping.

Note: Shield Slam's formula was changed in 4.0.3 I believe, so I didn't provide it here, but we all agree it's our best threat generating ability.

What really interests me in this discussion is the point for point value of talents like Deep Wounds, Incite and Cruelty have for threat.

And Post #30 Xav's response
I disagree with you simply due to the fact that there are bosses in 25 player raids, normal difficulty, that can 3 shot a tank - and some bursts upwards of 100-150k damage.

Post #32
Simply not true. I know they SAID that would happen, but it just didn't. And I'm sure healers are loving them for it.

Also, as Xav said, even if the tank isn't taking a lot of damage, a tank taking predictable damage allows the healer to heal elsewhere, or even move a healer off the tank. Spikey tank still might take two healers, even if lower damage overall.

I'll admit I haven't done the numbers either, and I don't know how much avoidance 5400 combined is. But the fact that mastery doesn't diminish should make it the clear best investment. Especially since once we max out regular block, we're already halfway to making everything critical block too.

EDIT: no one is saying completely eschew avoidance. In fact, you should specifically look for pieces with avoidance/mastery(especially now that we know taunt can't miss) on them to help fill out the table. I'd be willing to bet that in the course of maxing out mastery to fill the attack table, you incidentally reach that point in avoidance where mastery become better anyway.

Elitistjerks have been known to makes mistakes; the Threat post you post is particularly inaccurate (I could list them if you'd like).

In you're original post you state warriors should use the Etenral once they hit 90% CTC, now you say we need 100% CTC....which is it?

If spike damage is what matters before full CTC, why do we bother with mastery at all? shouldn't we be going straight stam gems before that point?

Being that quite alot of the Protection warrior info on EJ is based of the work of our fellow tankspotters Like Bigbad, Takethecake, Airowird/WarTotem, and Kojiyama who did the maths way back, I'll stand by their previous advice to me Which i hope i have faithfully recalled.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tengenstein

Elitistjerks have been known to makes mistakes; the Threat post you post is particularly inaccurate (I could list them if you'd like).

In you're original post you state warriors should use the Etenral once they hit 90% CTC, now you say we need 100% CTC....which is it?

If spike damage is what matters before full CTC, why do we bother with mastery at all? shouldn't we be going straight stam gems before that point?

Being that quite alot of the Protection warrior info on EJ is based of the work of our fellow tankspotters Like Bigbad, Takethecake, Airowird/WarTotem, and Kojiyama who did the maths way back, I'll stand by their previous advice to me Which i hope i have faithfully recalled.

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The threat portion of the post is irrelevant, I just put the entire post in the thread. I never said anyone needs 100% that was a poster from EJ, which everyone else was tossing out there as a source saying the Eternal is better. I also never specifically said warriors, i said at 90%(the OP is listing both a Paladin and a Warrior), however that is the number for both classes as again you cannot count CB chance because it's not reliable, sure it will reduce the TDR, but TDR doesn't matter.

Where is this math? Granted i didn't comb through the entire 24 pages or whatever I did go through at least 10-12 and have not seen it. If there is a model to show reliable DR then I have no problem saying I was wrong if I am, however this whole debate is based around TDR vs Spike dmg.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bigbad

Not quite sure what you want to say about the metagems, sounds like a load of rubbish. Armor meta effects EH just like stamina does and both effect damage reduction just like ctc does, its not that hard to compare the advantages of both gems. Your rng rambling sounds like a bad gambler on a loosing streak....

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How is it a load of rubbish? Both gems have the same amount of stam the only difference is in BV or Armor, Armor is 100% reliable to physical dmg taken, BV is not if you are not capped, so again armor is a guarantee and the BV is not until you are capped. What rng rambling are you talking about? It is simple, if it is a chance and not guaranteed then it is RNG because you have no control over this, and thus can go 10 swings in a row taking full hits which in that time the BV is 100% worthless.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Exiledknight

Post #1
Stamina ≥ Mastery > Parry ≥ Dodge

Your first priority when gearing up is to ensure that you have enough health to survive unavoidable burst damage. Whether it's a Mangle + Melee on Magmaw, a simultaneous Crackle + Shadowflame Breath on Nef, or any number of other nasty combos, you don't want to be vulnerable to getting one-rounded if you can help it. So be sure not to skimp on the stamina, especially if you're just starting to gear up your character for tanking.

---

Stamina comes naturally when your gear progresses. All those "unavoidable" burst damage is totally controllable: on Magmaw i always popped either shieldwall or last stand with shield block ~ 8s before impact to smooth the incoming the incoming damage out as much as possible. That covered three mangle phases and i only needed external assistance on the fourth before i would had another shieldwall ready for the fifth (well enrage was met at that point). I would have needed at least another ~20% hitpoints to survive this situation without any form of cooldown, something that was almost impossible at that gear state. And everybody who didn't pop an anti magic cooldown on crackles was an idiot, especially those crackles hitting for way above 100k when that post originally was made. Two stamina trinkets plus full stamina gemming/enchanting wouldn't have saved you from those bursts like a mirror of the broken images could once per minute. After the shield block change (-20% magical damage) you had to worry even less about "unavoidable burst damage" because we could at least reduce anything - even every breath on sinestra! - on our own.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Exiledknight

Post #29
I'm with ComMcNeil on this one.

The time of spike damage has passed and we're not in the risk of dying in two hits anymore. Even a "spiky" tank, who focuses on avoidance, will take at least 5-7 shots before going down and that, to me at least, is already smooth enough. The point then becomes lowering damage taken, which it seems is accomplished through pure avoidance over mastery stack, at least until a certain threshold.

Unfortunately, I lack the knowledge to do my own math or double check these numbers, but according to this post from Tankspot parry+dodge will result in less damage taken until 5400 combined avoidance ratings (mastery included). From there on out it's best to stack mastery.

Also, regarding the threat discussion, assuming these values are correct (I had them saved in my HD from patch 4.0.1, unfortunately can't quote the source):

Concussion Blow - (75/100*AP)*2
Shockwave - (75/100*AP) *2
Heroic Throw - (AP*0.5+12)*1.5
Devastate - [1.5(weapon dmg)+336*(number of sunders on target)]

Our priority becomes:
Shield Slam > Revenge > (Rend - with 30% debuff and/or through BnT) > SW = CB > HT > (Regular Rend) > Devastate

Which probably means Devastate will mostly be used to prevent stacks from dropping.

Note: Shield Slam's formula was changed in 4.0.3 I believe, so I didn't provide it here, but we all agree it's our best threat generating ability.

What really interests me in this discussion is the point for point value of talents like Deep Wounds, Incite and Cruelty have for threat.

---

He's leaning onto ComMcNeil deliberations when almost nobody had full ilvl 346 gear in december 2010! Even then they should had listened to Xav (#27) who already got it right: mastery is about smoothing incoming damage out, making it easier predictable and thus easier to heal in general. That's still one of the huge complains when it comes to heal druid tanks.

He's further not right about his priority assumption, simply because due to the scaling factors and different base damage we have to use different priority systems for different values of attackpower (modified via vengeance).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Exiledknight

EDIT: no one is saying completely eschew avoidance. In fact, you should specifically look for pieces with avoidance/mastery(especially now that we know taunt can't miss) on them to help fill out the table. I'd be willing to bet that in the course of maxing out mastery to fill the attack table, you incidentally reach that point in avoidance where mastery become better anyway.

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I say: screw posts from almost a year ago with LOTS of changes being made, gear has been drastically improved 346/59 to 391, even our mastery coefficient has been changed twice since then and as Tengenstein said don't take anything posted over there at face value. Actually the tank discussions* at EJ are inaccurate, outdated (and way worse) than threads here, on maintankadin or even on MMO-C. One of the reasons i left that board after participating for over three years with a few hundred postings...

If you're not at full ctc and more worried about worst case scenarios Austere will always come out ahead, if you're just looking for the best damage mitigation in general you really should give Eternal a try at firelands gear level.

* only Riggnaros from 'Blood Legion' made some real efforts for the DK tanking community outside of them keeping the discussion/whining about us overpowered blocktanks rolling

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Exiledknight

however overall dmg reduction is irrelevant until you reach full CTC, the spike damage is what matters.

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This is far from true with warriors its more something for paladins. For warriors specially with the 4piece 96,4% CTC is "enough". Besides spike damage isn't that dangerous anymore, only fight where there can be some nasty spike damage is on Shannox. Other spike damage is very predictable and can be countered with cds/trinkets.

Keep in mind that some of your other quotes are from T11, specially considering the metagem advice. We have more stamina in this Tier and more mastery both reducing the value of the austere gem.

Quote:

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Armor is 100% reliable to physical dmg taken, BV is not if you are not capped, so again armor is a guarantee and the BV is not until you are capped

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HOWEVER, if you are concerned about damage taken in the long run, the value of the Block Value wrt TDR increases with increasing CTC. You see this in my paladin guide and in Theck's maths. While warriors find it still extremely hard to hit full CTC outside of shield block, the message is the same. There will be a point at which the ESD is better than the ASD, even without being block-capped the whole time. Yes, there remains a chance that the block will do "nothing", but this chance is largely irrelevant.

We (all tanks) have buttons we can hit when we anticipate a spike - 8+ stacks of Jagged Tear with an Arcing Slash incoming, running across heroic rag with 4 stacks of burning wound and the healers moving and so on, thus these "scary moments", if unblockable or simply unluckily not blocked, are ironed out, not by the blocking, but by other means.

In Wrath we gemmed pure stamina because we needed to survive 2 hits between heals (or at least 1.5) because our avoidance was so high. I was at something crazy like 70% avoidance buffed. Nowadays our healthpools have quadrupled but the boss damage has largely stayed constant (LK25 heroic swung for 55k on a 60-65k pool, raid bosses nowadays swing for that much on a 200-220k pool). Thus the imminent danger of dying is gone.