Well, yes. And so does stamina and does it better currently.
Originally Posted by Airowird
Although the point I was trying to make was that inside the actual burst stamina is king.
And combined with the fact that we are at a point of DRs on avoidance where reaction time just not going to change much no matter what we do with it, I don't see any case for avoidance at all. I mean crit block looks more interesting in this regard, but I don't see it viable enough at this item level either.
Unless I'm mistaken and things have changed (with math to support) EH was deemed to beat avoidance almost always if not always, even looking at it from a healers stand point it makes sense. A bigger health pool makes you a more stable target to heal which is why Block Tanks also tend to be favored over their "spikey" friends. Getting hit more for less % of your total health is alot easier than rare big hits, you can plan for it as a healer which is a big thing.
Originally Posted by Airowird
EH > Avoid was the rule from BC through Wrath. Block was favored over EH in this expansion but that was because once you hit CTC you're effectively adding 30% or more EH because every hit is going to get that dmg reduced from it.
Block was favored this expansion since tanks already got enough stamina to prevent getting 2 shot.
Originally Posted by Gneecapper
Currently, Stamina > Avoidance > Armor in a Burst Time value PoV, so EHP is only better by using Stamina.
And Unhittable with the meta actually gives 44.93% extra EHP (1/69%)
But the point of Burst Time remains valid, reduce the times you actually make your healers worry and unlike WotLK, avoidance now still comes relatively close to Stamina to actually be valuable.
I am not convinced that Stamina is the best path to go post full CTC. A CTC capped tank already has enough EH to give healers time to react and this expansion Stamina increases EH a lot slower relative to the size of a melee swing.
With healer mana and time at a premium this expansion, I think it would be a mistake to disregard avoidance as a viable target stat. Riding the CTC cap, slowly shifting Mastery to Dodge and Parry, lightens the strain on healers in a way EH can not.
As I said before, in a pure Burst Time model, Stamina is slightly better, but avoidance comes close enough that you can consider the gains of pure Damage Reduction over the model of Burst Time, but that is your choice.
Strucker, no offense, but entire post makes zero sense from start to finish. I wouldn't even know how to reply to it.
Airowind, avoidance is close on Patchwerk. We are not fighting Pathwerks this expansion, we are fighting Dragons.
ctc cap warrior question
Kopcap, perhaps you can elaborate?I don't see a big difference between avoidance or stam after ctc. Once you reach full ctc, you have achieved the most stability you can. Keeping full ctc while shifting out of mastery and into avoidance makes more 30% 40% or 60% reductions into 0 damage...thereby making it even easier for healers.
The one big redeeming value to stam is no DR. I still don't see how that makes stucker's comment bad.
Burst Time models come with the assumption that if we live alittle longer the healer will heal us back to full health.
In situation where the amount of heals the healer can generate is limited, possibly due to mana or having to heal other players, that assumption does not hold up.
Once a tank has full CTC the question is no longer whether the healer has time to get off his next heal, it is whether the healer will be able to sustain the healing needed for the rest of the fight. Stacking stamina does not help the healer do so in any way, where as avoidance lowers the amount of sustained healing needed and thus helps address the real issue.
Avoidance is the opposit of "stability", healers have no way of knowing when it will proc and when it wont.
Originally Posted by sifuedition
On fights where you are spam healed, you will be getting spam healed at about the same rate. The difference is that sometimes when you parry a healer will be able to see it midcast, cancel and thus save some mana. This is hardly easier, its just a little more efficient. What will however make his life easier is knowing that a hit will take you only 20% down instead of usual 25%, thus creating a lot more room to breath and allowing more time to make better decisions, ie having enough time to cast GH instead of a FH, which in turn easily translates into better efficiency.
The one thing avoidance is good at is reducing the probability of a worst case scenario taking place, but so does stamina simply through the virtue of allowing a bigger health pool and hence requiring more "bad hits" to happen in a chain in order to trigger it.
There are of course other valid ways of making healers life actually easier, namely getting more armor and pushing crit block off the table, but none of this is currently relevant.
And again, this is all about a physical fight. Every bit of magic damage received in a fight does nothing for avoidance but tips the scales for stamina.
And obv on fights where tank healing is not intensive or spiky, stamina does not matter. But that is not what is being discussed here :)
ps The whole notion that past CTC healers' mana is a bigger cause of tanks' death than EH is pretty ridiculous. I can understand rationale behind avoidance as an attempt to max out dmg reduction on mostly physical or low hitting encounters, but as an attempt to save up healers resources its just lol.
Healers simply don't spam there biggest heals anymore, this isn't wrath, they can't afford to.
No, a healer isn't going to have to stop and change casts based on the outcome of any single swing, even on 25m heroic rag I can suvive 5-6 hits just fine (with the dot and magic damage) giving the healers plenty of time to react to any bad luck and shift to their heavy heals temporarly.
Most of the time the healers use a balance of lighter heals to preserve mana, avoidence lets them use the lighter healers more regularly, a situation they can sustain for longer. Stamina does nothing to change the mixture of heals the healer needs to use and thus leaves them running out of mana.
What your saying makes perfect sense viewed against wrath fights where healers had all the mana in the world and could spam there top heals but it simply doesn't work that way anymore. Nor are we in danger of dieing over a period of 5 seconds anymore.
Typed on my iPhone, so sorry for any typos.
If our healers could teach yours how not to go oom and you could teach me how to survive 6 hits on H Rag, we'd be smashing that shit.
Until then - lol, no.
On last nights 25M Heroic Rag trys, Rag's melee hit for 36k (blocked). Without stacking stamina I have 206k hp for that fight. So for straight melee hits, with the worst possble luck, 6 swings would just barely kill me. I currently have 42% pure avoidance, so on average it would require 10+ hits. At 2.2 seconds a swing that gives the healers at least 13.2 seconds and usually 22 seconds to pick up there healing, a far cry from the 5 seconds we had to work with back in wrath. (And thats not factoring in any CDs or crit blocks, not even Shield Block)
The dot ticked on me for 6k on average, factoring it in lowers the times to 8.8 and 17.6 seconds respectively with zero heals. If you include the light heals a healer will always be pushing, the times grow a lot longer.
So yes, 25M Heroic Rag is not going to be 2 shotting tanks anytime soon...
And if your healers seriously are not having to worry about mana management on 25M Heroic Rag, they either are godly or slacking off.
Rag must had been real hangover. And on normal.
ps Also Molten Core does not count.
I think being CtC capped is something that's really great health pools are already with the current tier pretty high. Yes you could get avoidance stats once you hit it. But, like what was said earlier that's given you having melee swings. I think CtC handles enough boss wise but then adding stamina is better. Because its something that is always working for you. Gives you more of a health pool for heals, gives you more vengeance even if it is slim (not suggesting stacking). I'm a little irritated with the idea that people would discount CTC as something not worthwhile or something fun to aim for. Since when do tanks have something worth shooting for in this expansion. We wont top meters, we cant show off threat anymore, why not show off how we can make a healers job easy.
- Hand of Ragnaros 40k
Originally Posted by Strucker
- Ragnaros melee hit for 60-75k pre block (swing timer is at ~ 1.8 seconds debuffed)
- Burning Wound ticks for 4-5k (1 stack), 9-10k (2 stacks), 12-16k (3 stacks), 20k (4 stacks)
0.0 50k regular block
0.0 12k Burning wound tick after resists
1.8 50k regular block
2.0 12k Burning wound tick after resists
2.2 27k Hand of Ragnaros after resists
3.6 50k regular block
4.0 12k burning wound tick after resists
213k damage without absorbs, ticking hots and avoided attacks during a four second timeframe. I took those numbers from 10m heroic, i doubt they will be lower on 25m :)
But there are other things we should notice: it's highly unlikely you'll tank Ragnaros without either shieldblock or four-piece bonus up so you're 100% of the time unhittable even with no full ctc on your paperdoll. I tank him with exp softcap, strength flask, strength food, a landslide weapon with offensive stats and a damaging trinket and still hit the 102.4% during four piece bonus.
The real question left: how much avoidance can we sneak in after reaching full ctc on a warrior (or for this tier more important: on a paladin)? Compared to how much stamina? Why not skipping both and going for softcap expertise? etc..
If you want to include long CD attacks (Like Hand) you have to factor in defencive CDs, any half way decent tank will be lining them up...
Originally Posted by klausi
By the time you have 4 stacks of Burning Wounds the other tank should be taunting, at most you will have 3 stacks well actively tanking for more then a moment, and most of the time less...
Even in your worse then worst case senerio it would take only 8k total heals/absorbes for a 205k hp tank to survive a full 5 seconds, long enough for large heals to get off. Take out the Hand and the tank lives till 5.6 with no heals.
Yes my melee damage numbers appear to have included crit blocks and some absorbes, had assumed WOL seperated those out but apparently not.
If your worried about burst time deaths why in the world are you stacking expertise and strength? Threat is a joke now and tank DPS is not needed so badly as to sacrifice survival on progression content.
As to your question, I have 42% passive avoidance well maintaining 102.4% passive CTC (Raid Buffed). I'll check later what the stam/avoidance ratio looks like but one thing to keep in mind is that as you increase avoidance you start saving points you had spent on mastery amplifying the effect, stamina comes with no such perk.
I honestly can see no arguements for stacking threat stats, but thats coming from a 25 man mindset where tank DPS makes up a very small portion of the raid DPS.
Not to troll or flame, but merely to promote thought:
Perhaps by your admission that you run 25s instead of 10s, you're saying that since tank DPS plays a more vital role in 10s, thus "threat" stats could become more important?
Tank dps is only worthwhile on 10mans, which klausi runs afaik, and even then its only worth it on some encounters with a tight dps requirement.
However, if you can manage full CTC and still move into damage-dealing stats to kill things faster, is that not worth it?