What. The eff.

So, I usually NEVER have aggro issues, but ever since I got prot shoulders (I had been wearing these, reforged and gemmed accordingly with mastery) my DPS/aggro has been TERRIBLE. I just did one boss in ZG and couldn't keep aggro from a ret pally in PVP gear. I averaged at about 5k DPS the entire fight, which I usually pull about 6-7k.

This isn't the first time I've had problems since I got the new shoulders, either.

I haven't changed my rotation at all (dev, dev, ss, dev, dev, truck). I'm becoming worried that I'm broken :(

Here's my armory.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...ystrave/simple

Keep in mind I do rotate my trinkets depending on the fight.

SS->Dev->Dev->Open Open = CB > SW > Refresh Rend (unless you have a bleed debuff, then Rend > all and safeclip below 6 seconds) Or drop CB if your threat is good and you're looking at just DPS.

Heroic strike usage?

P.S. Block Meta (eternal) > %Armor meta

block meta > armor meta?
seems somewhat simplistic. I remember seeing some math pointing that total damage reduction from armor meta > block, unless you have a ammount x of block (or more), in which they become roughly equal. This considering all atacks from front and blockable, yada yada. In the real world you might sometimes screw up and get hit on the back, making block meta alweys a bad choice. Maybe the post i read is outdated (its more then 3 months old), maybe block meta is waaay more valuable to warriors then pallies (was on a pally specific forum), but still, might lead someone that per chance reads the thread the wrong way by leaving it so black and white.

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Originally Posted by Rystrave

So, I usually NEVER have aggro issues, but ever since I got prot shoulders (I had been wearing these, reforged and gemmed accordingly with mastery) my DPS/aggro has been TERRIBLE.

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You changed one item for another, that's not the source of your problem. 500 more of rating A or B won't make or break your play :)

Looks like either the ret did know what he was doing, pulling enough dps to bypass you (with all cooldowns even a pvp geared ret paladin should be able to pull 25k+ dps in a rather short burst scenario, don't forget about the 15% buff) or he just forgot to toggle righteous fury off. Anyways if you see one aggro machine put vigilance on him, keep taunting back and use intervene.

I pulled similar numbers without enough vengeance at the start of the expansion and you're at a point when you start outgear that place, thus you'll have to tweak some pieces to keep up with your dps (getting some pieces with offensive stats you can use for 5 mans, aiming for some more expertise while maintaining a neat mastery level of 50% block should be sufficient). Basically you should be able to keep aggro on almost anything (single target wise) with just spamming devastate and weave in heroic strike when rage permits. Don't forget about recklessness and retaliation and just wait with applying demoshout/thunderclap until your threat lead is settled.

Neither gem is going kill you. in a clutch situation the armour meta is more likley to save your life but only by a fraction of a percent of your health. for overall damage reduction the Block meta is the better gem for warriors one they get there CTC to about 75% IIRC, which is around the 353 ilvl.

I've taken the liberty of shoving Rystrave into simcraft, from what iits telling me in his present gear the rage saving from Revenge makes it worth using.

His Max threat Priority would be something like
1.Shield Block
2. Shield Slam
3. If you have an Arms Warrior/Sub Rogue/ Feral Kitty/Hyena Pet/Boar pet, Maintaining Rend via Blood and thunder
4. Revenge if it will shorten the CD of Shield Slam
5. Devastate if it will shorten the CD of Shield Slam
6. Concussion Blow
7. Shockwave (with 2/3 stacks of Thunderstruck)
8. Heroic Thow
9. Shockwave (with 0/1 stacks of thunderstruck)
10. Revenge
11. Devastate

with as many heroic strikes as he can fit in without rage starving the above priority

I'm prepared to bet that the ret pally had righteous fury on, or was just doing something else really dumb. All the advice given here about rotations etc is fine, and you should listen to it, but since the threat changes you would have to be playing incredibly badly to lose threat under normal conditions. Watch out for rets with RF, DKs in blood presence. There is no IQ test on the dungeon finder.

After tanking Beth last night, I averaged 8.5-10k DPS. So I wonder if it's just that the Troll heroics things go down faster and I can't get vengence stacked fast enough.

I do use HS when rage is high, but like I said with the Troll heroics I think it's a matter of everyone getting overgeared for them.

Stupid pallys /facepalm

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Originally Posted by swelt

I'm prepared to bet that the ret pally had righteous fury on, or was just doing something else really dumb.

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Originally Posted by Rystrave

I averaged at about 5k DPS the entire fight, which I usually pull about 6-7k.

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5k dps (with 15% buff) is equal to using devaste 13 times per minute (instead of up to 40 times). 5k dps equals 25k tps. Any paladin with wings, zealotry and guardian should comes ahead of those numbers with decent gear.

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Originally Posted by Tengenstein

3. If you have an Arms Warrior/Sub Rogue/ Feral Kitty/Hyena Pet/Boar pet, Maintaining Rend via Blood and thunder

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Rend deals a neat amount of damage and provides good sustained tps values but it's initial damage is rather low. If you start a single target fight i wouldn't bother with rend until shield block has worn off, only fishing for S&B proccs during heavy repercussions. Shockwave (and heroic throw on the pull) are rather strong thanks to their connect chance for the snap aggro.

If you feel comfortable with the ability you can also weave in heroic leap on the first charge, adding another threat bomb for zero rage. That looks something like

prepull shout, on pull heroic throw, charge + heroic leap, shockwave

With the 500% threat modifier it's very unlikely anthing can draw aggro from you at that point.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rystrave

After tanking Beth last night, I averaged 8.5-10k DPS. So I wonder if it's just that the Troll heroics things go down faster and I can't get vengence stacked fast enough.

I do use HS when rage is high, but like I said with the Troll heroics I think it's a matter of everyone getting overgeared for them.

Stupid pallys /facepalm

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This is why in late wrath I stopped running heroics on my rage tanks, not that they were hard, they were just the opposite and I wasn't able to get enough rage. But as others have said, changing out 1 piece of gear shouldn't have caused to you suddenly not be able to hold aggro. I bet the pvp ret forgot about RF.

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Originally Posted by uglie

I bet the pvp ret forgot about RF.

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Probably - and I don't know anything about pallies so I was taken back by it. I figured it was just me fail tanking.

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Originally Posted by klausi

Shockwave (and heroic throw on the pull) are rather strong thanks to their connect chance for the snap aggro.

If you feel comfortable with the ability you can also weave in heroic leap on the first charge, adding another threat bomb for zero rage. That looks something like

prepull shout, on pull heroic throw, charge + heroic leap, shockwave

With the 500% threat modifier it's very unlikely anthing can draw aggro from you at that point.

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What you've siad about rend is totally right, definetly not worth putting up during the first initial SB, however at low vengeance (i.e. during the first SB) shockwaves aren't actually that hard hiting, It scales very nicely with AP, but if you don't have alot of vengeance then that nice scaling is pretty much a non factor, even mitigated by its higher chance to connect on a single target Devastate will on average out do it during the first 10 seconds or sodue to its high base damage.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rystrave

After tanking Beth last night, I averaged 8.5-10k DPS. So I wonder if it's just that the Troll heroics things go down faster and I can't get vengence stacked fast enough.

I do use HS when rage is high, but like I said with the Troll heroics I think it's a matter of everyone getting overgeared for them.

Stupid pallys /facepalm

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Well, actually its really not a matter of outgearing an encounter anymore. With the changes that went in way back when, so we gen rage on all avoidence, so unless ue abusing the Heroic strike or cleave, rage shouldn't be an issue. As for your take on not stacking vengence fast enough to put out the needed dps, well vengence scales with damage taken. If something is not hitting hard then you gain less Vengence, that why ur putting out more in a raid then a heroic dungeon. its not a ramping problem at all. If i were you i wouldnt worry too much about LFG, every1 get that one dps that come in and pops every cd just to /flex.