Revenge Viable Yet Again

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Originally Posted by Tengenstein

Anyone worked out what the HPS absorb size of the palley version is to comapre?

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Hits for about 13k without the glyph (+10% damage) and it can't miss (it's still a spell so no dodge/parry, the not-missing part is a recently implemented work around for prot paladin going oom with judgement missing twice in a row). Cooldown is 8 seconds, regulary you delay it for both finisher, crusader strike and avenger's shield, with the 2 piece it also adds an ~ 4k absorb shield, equals to 500 hps (if not delayed, another 10% possible with the glyph). That's not gamebreaking but more reliable thanks to 100% connect chance.

In that case I can't see them buffing Revenge without buffing Judgement too.

I worked it out the other day; essentially, the cooldowns marry up over two minutes (24 swings to 15) and I rounded Revenge and Judgement up to 12k and 15k respectively, which is very conservative. I forget the exact numbers, but the paladin version is about 10k ahead over that period - hardly gamebreaking, but still. The shields themselves are also bigger due to Judgement hitting harder and getting 30% of a shield instead of 20%, but neither version sets the world on fire.

Well, it's a pretty damn weak absorb shield, but it has to be. If it were more like a DK's powerful heal/shield, then prot warriors would have to lose their 30/60% reduction block, or DKs would have to be buffed significantly.

So this gives an extremely minor boost to survivability, but the difference in damage between Imp Revenge and Devastate isn't that great, and Revenge now has a side-benefit, if minor. If there are 2 targets, the shield could become a bit more significant. Either way, A shield slam+devastate rotation is boring. At least using Revenge should keep things a bit more interesting.

Agree with Reev. It's only a set bonus. This isn't going to be the full sum of the active survival model we get in the next expansion, it's just a minor benefit from a 2pc set bonus in which they can test the water. Getting the 4pc is likely to be mandatory, if only because the encounter designers will have taken it into account for hard mode tuning, so it's not like getting the 2pc is a real choice. The only choices are whether you choose to hit revenge when it lights up or just keep mashing devastate (is that really a choice? What tank chooses dps over survival in any meaningful content) and perhaps more importantly, whether the set bonus makes it worth speccing into improved revenge.

I also think you guys are barking up the wrong tree when you're converting this to HPS. This is all discrete, not continuous. I'm still relatively confused why tanks are still looking at the "damage taken over time" model in late Cata. It mattered at the beginning, but more "burst time" and EHP mechanics are quickly becoming more and more important, ESPECIALLY with warriors and shield block. We're able to start gearing back towards the EHP model (at least, all the maths and experience I've done in my spare time points to that, I've just been far to lazy to publish it and deal with people going "WAH WAH WAH BUT EJ SAYS BLAH"), and that's why shield block is soooooo powerful. Imo it's the most powerful cooldown we have.

So... I agree with Reev, it's a nice addition and a reason to use revenge. But don't think of it in terms of HPS, if bosses are hitting for 20-30k we're talking about a 10% damage reduction. To me, that's awesome, especially in terms of absorbs and the EHP model. Is it game breaking? No but it can't be and shouldn't be, it's a 2pc bonus.

As far as shield wall vs. raid wall (LS vs. RC), to me this translates to "WAAAAAA I have to THINK!" that's all tanks DO. It's all about strategy. All you have to do is think before the fight, "okay, do I need to use my shield wall for the raid, if yes, save it, if you absolutely have to use it, have a backup" And if you do use it for your own accord, it only helps healers unless there's absolutely no raid damage going out.

I really like these set bonuses, I'm pretty excited about them. Imo it also depends on how main set vs. offset gear is itemized though. If the main set has a lot of expertise and hit (which could make sense b/c that would increase the effectiveness of the 2pc) to the extent that it's just really poorly itemized and the off pieces are all mastery/parry mastery/dodge, then you may need to make the conscious decision to pass it up. As a raid leader, I really don't have a problem with not everyone wanting set bonuses, because if EVERYONE wants the tier pieces, then it's a real bitch to deal with as far as loot distribution goes.

Idk, I just don't see a problem with these set bonuses and think they're a good thing. All y'all are jumpin' off a bridge for nothin'.

The warrior 4 piece just makes Shield Wall a http://www.wowhead.com/spell=70940 for warriors, with the added benefit that it protects the warrior also.

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Originally Posted by Theotherone

The warrior 4 piece just makes Shield Wall a http://www.wowhead.com/spell=70940 for warriors, with the added benefit that it protects the warrior also.

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Originally Posted by klausi

- Warrior specific, we now have two raidcooldowns that limit our own survivial cooldowns? That's bullshit, period.

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My main problem with the 2pc is that it pretty much forces me to spec 2 points into Imp.Rev, which is generally where i get the floater points for safeguard or whatever, and that its a band-aid for Revenge, id rather have Revenge be a nice ability and the 2pc bonus be the sugar on the top, i.e. an actual bonus rather than this bribe to use a lacklustre ability.

Maybe its just my attitude but I don't feel that I should be having a major Glyph slot and 2 pc bonuses affect something that plays such a small part of our rotation, Revenge needs some good and tender loving, and this just feel like they got it a rampant rabbit and sent it off to have some fun in the next room.

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Originally Posted by Theotherone

The warrior 4 piece just makes Shield Wall a http://www.wowhead.com/spell=70940 for warriors, with the added benefit that it protects the warrior also.

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The 4pc is a boon to Paragon and other tip-top guilds, for sure. But...

My money is the tank 4pc get's Word of Gloried and changed because Blizzard can't see 2 feet in front of it and will react to tanks QQ that their raid-leader is making them use their biggest damage reducer for the raid and they have less tools to work with.

It's crap design. Either it's a fight like Rhy, where there's mostly AoE and not much burst damage and it's usable, or it's a fight where burst can kill the tank and it's useless for that fight.

****

It's a bonus. I guess if it's there, it'll be fine to use. But I doubt I'll be gunning for it or bidding on tier tokens over classes with more useful bonuses.

Maybe we'll be so godlike with T13 gear that we don't need personal cds.

So threat and survivabilty are a forgone conclusion? where'd I put my rogue....

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Originally Posted by Loganisis

Either it's a fight like Rhy, where there's mostly AoE and not much burst damage and it's usable, or it's a fight where burst can kill the tank and it's useless for that fight.

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I'd have thought that Rhyolith was a good example of a fight where the 4pc would be great. In the earlier phases, there are times when the spark tank will be taking high single target, at the same time the raid is taking constant splash, so it's win/win to shield wall. In the final phase, a shield walling a stomp will help the raid and help the tank. win/win. It's like crackle @ nef: you would use shield wall at the same time as you would want a raid cooldown anyway, so having the set bonus is just of benefit.

But looking at old encounters against a T13 set bonus is, of course, daft. Encounter designers are well aware of set bonuses, and vice versa. They WILL be designing raid mechanics around the abilities available to the players. When heroic modes are being designed, they will have raid wide bursts and we will be made to appreciate our set bonus. It won't be by coincidence, but by design.

See, I have no problem with designing encounters to include those things, but what I do fear is that the set pieces will then be relatively forced upon the tanks and this can be especially annoying when several pieces don't have the stats you prefer (such as dodge/parry or even a parry/hit piece when you're already trying to reforge parry to dodge)

The problem I have with designing encounters around having them is that it pretty much means you have to have those 4sets on your tanks to beat those encounters.

I think Blizzard like that though... they like encouraging players to make choices rather than just assume 4 piece is always best, and they like having soft gates on progression that encourage players to gear up before diving straight in to everything. As a player, I think the former can feel quite satisfying (I'm a big fan of having multiple sets and tweaking gear to fit the fight), the latter can be frustrating but it does make you appreciate having your set that much more.

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Originally Posted by swelt

encourage players to gear up

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What i read: i raid my regular 10m group and i've to solo queue with that LFR tool to get my 4 piece because i can't the pieces in a short time from either PvP Boss (if they are even eligible for dropping tier items) or spending Valor points (Blizz stated we can only get it with raiding). Randomly raiding with 24 strangers, fighting for the tokens of some loot pinatas that might actually won't be THAT easy.. arf! Merging 10/25 Id's was a godsend greatly decreasing my time spent in WoW, if we really need those boni to keep on par with 25m raids (token drops are almost guaranteed over a course of 2-3 weeks, your two-three tanks will have them in no time) on progression fights.. arf² Eg: we had two token heroic chest drops for warriors over a dozen of kills, that's 10 weeks without a drop. Shannox refused to drop paladin panties token until this very week, that's 3 full months without any luck. Now imagine you don't have access to at least the nonheroic versions via VP..

Two things:

1) The plural of 'bonus' is 'bonuses' not boni.

2)

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The problem I have with designing encounters around having them is that it pretty much means you have to have those 4sets on your tanks to beat those encounters.

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And? You act like this is something Unique, tank gear requirements like resist gear or unblockable gear for H-Anub25, etc. is nothing new. The only difference is that tokens (and 4 set) will have competition. But so what if a tank gets them first, it's just loot and it will drop again. If you're a progression guild pushing the kind of HM content that may need extra raid cooldowns, what's the big deal with gearing out a central person like a tank first? This used to be standard practice.

I realise that this creates problems, and probably more problems for 10 man guilds than 25 man guilds. I thought I'd read something about the gear acquisition for T13 which was intended to address this... the 'all tier from bosses, mostly offset from VP' thing is somehow intended to help?

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Originally Posted by Aggathon

What's the big deal with gearing out a central person like a tank first? This used to be standard practice.

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Last tier tanks was last to get their items because healers needed 2 piece rather quickly to keep going without a shard of woe and dps requirements were fairly high through the whole instance encouraging us to give all possible loot to our dps right afterwards. Tank damage was no problem outside of Baleroc and he was totally possible with 372/378 gear. Now we've to blast through normal mode and make decisions based on what we see there, get out of the dungeon journal or via PTR. Wasting only two pieces of t13 tokens on a paladin tank instead of eg a demonology warlock equals to a huge loss in rdps (Doomguard deals ~ 15-18k dps during it's uptime depending on proccs, 2 piece increasing it's uptime by 75% and lowering it's cooldown by 40% - that's 7-10k more dps over a felhunter or a felguard), especially on burst phases like Ragnaros heroic p3 or take two piece of t12 tokens on a warrior tank instead of eg a elemental shaman (permanent Fire Elemental totem, being twice to almost tripple as good as dropping searing totem).